are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:09 am

hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
because of ignorance, i was born, because i was born i have senses, these senses are how i percieve this reality, because of ignorance i am attatched to this reality, so if i see a being suffering i take action but while acting i'm observing sensations.
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:13 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi Jason
A fairly standard dictionary definition of society is what I mean (the community within which we live).
Actively working against war could mean many different things. Can you think of some examples?


how about letting the fire of war simply burn out, so there is no more fuel to reignite.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby manas » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:41 am

jason c wrote:
hi manas,
it's not your country,
what about the animals share of the lands wealth?
it's not your land!
metta,
jason


Hi jason,

'my Land' was meant in the sense of affection, not ownership. You have misunderstood my intent. If I had it my way, many mining projects would have to be shut down, because of the damage they cause to the ecosystems around them. When I spoke about the lack of proper remuneration for what the overseas miners take, it was solely to make the point that we are being plundered, and thus have, in one sense, already been 'invaded'...but in the ultimate sense, of course this Land doesn't 'belong' to anyone, and it isn't anyone's right to strip-mine it, destroy the water-table with Coal Seam Gas mining, etc etc...but, the miners, both ours and the overseas ones, don't appear to see it that way. Bear in mind that we too are implicated, however, by having purchased computers with metallic and other parts in them, that originally were extracted via...mining. It's a complex world.

Hope that clears things up

manas. _/I\_
Last edited by manas on Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:42 am

jason c wrote:hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
My life has been at risk, and it surprising how much thinking can happen in a snap of finger.

Questions still pending:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12761#p192845
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:42 pm

jason c wrote:hey david,
do you think the united states is a peaceful nation?


Hi jason,

Peaceful and war-mongering are very broad terms. There can be some gray areas in the middle. I would prefer all nations to be peaceful and non-violent, but as we know, this is not the case. The U.S. has engaged in many wars, many of which were not even in defense of the nation, but rather international police actions based on flimsy evidence or questionable reasons. As societies progress, wars become much less frequent, but also much larger in scale. The horticultural - tribal societies are some of the most war-mongering, war-like societies ever seen on earth, but the scale of violence with the lesser technology was less.

jason c wrote:
santa100 wrote:Imagine the US didn't make the decision to take action during WW II, we probably would've been discussing the Dhamma in German. Actually, it's more like for those who practice "corrupted" doctrines not in line with National Socialism, they would be free to practice their faith...at Auschwitz; and worst of, our youths would probably be learning in their history class that once upon a time, there used to be an "evil" group of people called the Jews, but how wonderful it is now that they no longer exist!

hi santa100,
some do practice the dhamma in german, what's wrong with that?
the united nations acts the same way exterminating people who oppose their views, you only care about the side of the fence you are on. plus the united nations exterminates animals on a daily basis for food consumption, we humans share this planet, we do not own it, its not all about us.


I think you are missing santa's point. It is not about practicing Dhamma in German, but that we wouldn't even have access to the Dhamma if the Nazis continued on their path of taking over the world and continuing the ethnic genocides. You said santa only cares about the "side of the fence" he is on. In regard to WW II era Nazis and their "master plans" which side would you be on? If it is not your business and you would be on no side and if everyone felt that way, the Nazis would have their way and the Dhamma would already be lost at their book burnings and prohibitions against anything non-aryan (nazi version of the term).

jason c wrote:
we should simply be minding our own business.


As Tilt asked, what does this mean? So we should not speak out against an injustice? Should MLK have minded his own business? Should Rosa Parks just sit at the back with the other Black people like the racist segregation policies told her to do?
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:44 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
jason c wrote:hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
My life has been at risk, and it surprising how much thinking can happen in a snap of finger.

Questions still pending:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 61#p192845


then while you were thinking, were you mindful of the sensations created and your reactions to them?
metta,
jason
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:04 pm

hi david,
i'm sure the native american indians, or the australian aboriginies, feel exactly the same as the jews did. where was the civil interaction then. group mentalities are not for practicing buddhists we are to remain mindful of our own sensations and reactions to them. i watched my cousin catch and in my interpretation torture a fish the other day for the apparent reason of educating my son on how to handle fish. i did nothing but observe the sensations in my body i didn't react to stop him. i did not agree with what he was doing, and on a day to day basis i teach my son my way of living in the world. he will be free to make up his own mind. the nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain. how many of the recovering jews after rescue held on to resentment for their remaining days passing that resentment on to the next generation, all the time never knowing the joy of forgiveness letting go, detatchment, peace.
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby santa100 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:57 pm

Jason C wrote:
"The nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain"

Guess what Jason C, without this past, you wouldn't be sitting here in your comfy armchair sipping hot chocolate and discussing about war and peace. If you're a Jew, chances are that you'd already be dead by now OR you'd be living a horrible horrible life facing constant abuse, cold, and hunger at Auschwitz. If the Nazis had their way, the term "Noble Aryan Disciples" would have a whole new different meaning. And you'd soon find out for yourself that they weren't very "noble" afterall. If terms like Auschwitz, National Socialism, or Gas Chambers don't ring a bell, you might want to check out these 2 movies before continuing your discussion: "Life Is Beautiful" and "The Pianist".
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:53 pm

jason c wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
jason c wrote:hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
My life has been at risk, and it surprising how much thinking can happen in a snap of finger.

Questions still pending:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 61#p192845


then while you were thinking, were you mindful of the sensations created and your reactions to them?
metta,
jason
I am waiting for you to directly answer these questions in the above link. There is no point in my answering your questions if you don't directly answer my questions put to you first. You do seem to be dodging questions here left and right.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby SDC » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:49 pm

jason c wrote:the monk simply stated he was not an expert in the medical field, the man seemed to be cared for, and he was simply minding his own business.


Maybe I have a lot to learn, but I would never want to be like this. Nor do I see this attitude anywhere in the teachings. I think the monk was afraid to act for whatever reason.

jason c wrote:are there any justifiable wars that a practicing buddhist could support?


No.

But that doesn't mean we have to turn a blind eye when one is happening or pretend it isn't going on. We can support those that have been affected. We can have an opinion on the outcome. We don't have to repress the fact that we care just because we are practicing.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:28 pm

santa100 wrote:Jason C wrote:
"The nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain"

Guess what Jason C, without this past, you wouldn't be sitting here in your comfy armchair sipping hot chocolate and discussing about war and peace. If you're a Jew, chances are that you'd already be dead by now OR you'd be living a horrible horrible life facing constant abuse, cold, and hunger at Auschwitz. If the Nazis had their way, the term "Noble Aryan Disciples" would have a whole new different meaning. And you'd soon find out for yourself that they weren't very "noble" afterall. If terms like Auschwitz, National Socialism, or Gas Chambers don't ring a bell, you might want to check out these 2 movies before continuing your discussion: "Life Is Beautiful" and "The Pianist".


dear santa100,
if you can't let go of the past, if you can't practice forgiveness, how will you ever know peace. and if you do not know peace for yourself, how can you be an example of it to others.

metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:44 pm

SDC wrote:
jason c wrote:the monk simply stated he was not an expert in the medical field, the man seemed to be cared for, and he was simply minding his own business.


Maybe I have a lot to learn, but I would never want to be like this. Nor do I see this attitude anywhere in the teachings. I think the monk was afraid to act for whatever reason.

jason c wrote:are there any justifiable wars that a practicing buddhist could support?


No.

But that doesn't mean we have to turn a blind eye when one is happening or pretend it isn't going on. We can support those that have been affected. We can have an opinion on the outcome. We don't have to repress the fact that we care just because we are practicing.


hi SDC,
the message is not to simply act like a stone when chaos is happening around you. when chaos is happening around you, you would act or you would choose not to act! the practicing buddhist must train themself to be mindfull of their actions and not get caught up in body sensations(emotions) that cause us to react unskillfully.
nothing of what i am talking about is suppression. to allow sankharas to rise to the surface both pleasant and unpleasant and remain equanimous is not a practice of suppression.
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:58 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
jason c wrote: we should simply be minding our own business.
What is our own business? Do we ignore the screams of terror outside our apartment window because that is not our business? Do we ignore the person in distress? What is our business?


violence just seems to lead to more violence
So, we allow the violence to contune because it is not our business? What is our business?


hey tilt,
1. our own sensory perseptions.
2.sounds are just sounds how you percieve them is your business.
3.you may choose to ignore the person in distress or you may choose to take action. mindful action is the practice.
4. see answer to #2
5.see answer to #3
6.see answer to #2

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby santa100 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:05 pm

Jason C wrote:
"if you can't let go of the past, if you can't practice forgiveness, how will you ever know peace. and if you do not know peace for yourself, how can you be an example of it to others"

Dear Jason C, it'd be utterly impossible to ever know peace if you're just "mindful" and "simply watch" as a bystander to the suffering of other people. By the way, good luck with trying to be an "example" to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc..
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:39 pm

santa100 wrote:Jason C wrote:
"if you can't let go of the past, if you can't practice forgiveness, how will you ever know peace. and if you do not know peace for yourself, how can you be an example of it to others"

Dear Jason C, it'd be utterly impossible to ever know peace if you're just "mindful" and "simply watch" as a bystander to the suffering of other people. By the way, good luck with trying to be an "example" to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc..


dear santa100,
stop watching others, you will not find peace looking outwardly, you must look inwardly. "know thyself". you do not have to change the habit patterns of others, you only have to change yours.
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby Mr Man » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:51 pm

Jason,
This is a very beautiful sutta and possibly is relivent: Sedaka Sutta: The Bamboo Acrobat http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.019.olen.html
:anjali:
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:11 pm

The Buddha's path is the path to the end of suffering. Those on it should not take up arms or engage in violence with anyone, especially out of anger or hatred.

"When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist': If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

— SN 42.3


Non-Buddhist statesmen and soldiers who engage in war must judge their moral decisions by other criteria and Buddhists should not criticize those who do not follow the Buddha by holding them to the Buddha's standards. However, I think it's clear that for a Buddhist, by the Buddha's standards, there is no just war. Other people may have different standards and they will deal with the negative karma they accumulate doing so.

We should, with compassion, help these people to see the error of their ways, as the Buddha did with King Pasenadi. But in the end, it's not up to us. The best we can do is follow the Buddha's words and live harmlessly no matter what others may choose to do.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:40 pm

jason c wrote:the nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain.


Oh, but it is in the present. There are still leaders like that in this world. Genocide is still continuing to this day in some parts of the world. So you have avoided this question.

jason c wrote:how many of the recovering jews after rescue held on to resentment for their remaining days passing that resentment on to the next generation, all the time never knowing the joy of forgiveness letting go, detatchment, peace.


What is a "recovering Jew"? Is that something like a recovering alcoholic? I think you meant surviving Jew (from the holocaust). How do you know this about the so-called resentment and not letting go, etc.? Have you met a few Jews and made a generalization? :thinking: I have met many survivors and most were quite normal and happy considering what they went through. Many became idealistic, starting kibbutzim (collective farms) in Israel.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby marc108 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:11 pm

I struggle with this question, and questions of a similar nature. I pile this one into the 'I'll deal with it if it happens' pile... speculation is rather pointless imo.

The Buddha, I believe, had a good understanding of the society he lived in and how war and whatnot functioned in his day. What he did not, I believe, have foreknowledge of is the type of War that exists today. The slaughter of millions of innocents that we see in Africa today, let alone Hitlers slaughter of ~15 million people, did not exist in the time of the Buddha. The capacity for maniacs to literally take over the entire world did not exist in the time of the Buddha. We can not claim to know what the Buddha would say in light of things as they are today... The Buddha was a pragmatist, and the farthest thing from dogmatic... Had he seen the carnage of WWII, tens of millions of dead, half the world destroyed... perhaps he would have changed his position? I think our best bet is to listen to what the great Masters of the modern day say, and hope that we are never put in those positions.

http://dalailama.com/messages/world-pea ... ity-of-war
"For instance, it is plain to all of us that the Second World War was entirely justified. It "saved civilization" from the tyranny of Nazi Germany, as Winston Churchill so aptly put it."
Last edited by marc108 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:11 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
jason c wrote:the nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain.


Oh, but it is in the present. There are still leaders like that in this world. Genocide is still continuing to this day in some parts of the world. So you have avoided this question.

jason c wrote:how many of the recovering jews after rescue held on to resentment for their remaining days passing that resentment on to the next generation, all the time never knowing the joy of forgiveness letting go, detatchment, peace.


What is a "recovering Jew"? Is that something like a recovering alcoholic? I think you meant surviving Jew (from the holocaust). How do you know this about the so-called resentment and not letting go, etc.? Have you met a few Jews and made a generalization? :thinking: I have met many survivors and most were quite normal and happy considering what they went through. Many became idealistic, starting kibbutzim (collective farms) in Israel.


hi david,

do you live constantly worrying about the state of the planet? or do you live moment to moment observing the sense doors? at times i witness the insanity of others(watch the news), but i prefer to see the beauty in the world, and i do my part trying to end the insanity by being mindful of my actions and practicing the noble 8-fold path.

a recovering jew is a survivor of the holocaust.
no.
yes.
first hand experience.
yes
i'm sure they were. great good for them.

metta,
jason
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