are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:18 pm

marc108 wrote:I struggle with this question, and questions of a similar nature. I pile this one into the 'I'll deal with it if it happens' pile... speculation is rather pointless imo.

The Buddha, I believe, had a good understanding of the society he lived in and how war and whatnot functioned in his day. What he did not, I believe, have foreknowledge of is the type of War that exists today. The slaughter of millions of innocents that we see in Africa today, let alone Hitlers slaughter of ~15 million people, did not exist in the time of the Buddha. The capacity for maniacs to literally take over the entire world did not exist in the time of the Buddha. We can not claim to know what the Buddha would say in light of things as they are today... The Buddha was a pragmatist, and the farthest thing from dogmatic... Had he seen the carnage of WWII, tens of millions of dead, half the world destroyed... perhaps he would have changed his position? I think our best bet is to listen to what the great Masters of the modern day say, and hope that we are never put in those positions.

http://dalailama.com/messages/world-pea ... ity-of-war
"For instance, it is plain to all of us that the Second World War was entirely justified. It "saved civilization" from the tyranny of Nazi Germany, as Winston Churchill so aptly put it."


what about the native americans and australian aboriginies, do they matter less than the jewish people in ww2? war is war, war is terrorism, to start a war against terrorism is to start a war against war.
pointless!
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:20 pm

Mr Man wrote:Jason,
This is a very beautiful sutta and possibly is relivent: Sedaka Sutta: The Bamboo Acrobat http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.019.olen.html
:anjali:


yes, this is very relevant.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby marc108 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:22 pm

jason c wrote:what about the native americans and australian aboriginies, do they matter less than the jewish people in ww2? war is war, war is terrorism, to start a war against terrorism is to start a war against war.
pointless!
metta,
jason


those were not wars in the context that is being used here, but of course the Natives are no less valuable than any other person. WWII was not a war against terrorism, per say, it was a desperate attempt to stop a maniac from literally taking over the whole world. would it have been better to let hitler do his thing and hope for peace? of course not.

i can see, how a Buddhist would not want to participate in war or to kill... totally justifiable. but to make sweeping judgements that war itself is wrong, without paying attention to situation and context, is unwise.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:28 pm

jason c wrote:do you live constantly worrying about the state of the planet?


Of course not, but I also don't sit still watching my sensations if some chaos is going on around me. I also plan on contemplating what to do in certain situations; I am not going to sit and watch sensations to figure out what to do in the heat of some crisis or trust instincts when chaos occurs.

jason c wrote:a recovering jew is a survivor of the holocaust.


No it is not. "Recovering" is a term for "getting over" something such as alcohol, drugs, etc.

jason c wrote:first hand experience. [regarding knowing that Jews are full of resentment]
yes [regarding making a generalization upon meeting a few Jews]


Incredible. Unbelievable.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:28 pm

manas wrote:
jason c wrote:
hi manas,
it's not your country,
what about the animals share of the lands wealth?
it's not your land!
metta,
jason


Hi jason,

'my Land' was meant in the sense of affection, not ownership. You have misunderstood my intent. If I had it my way, many mining projects would have to be shut down, because of the damage they cause to the ecosystems around them. When I spoke about the lack of proper remuneration for what the overseas miners take, it was solely to make the point that we are being plundered, and thus have, in one sense, already been 'invaded'...but in the ultimate sense, of course this Land doesn't 'belong' to anyone, and it isn't anyone's right to strip-mine it, destroy the water-table with Coal Seam Gas mining, etc etc...but, the miners, both ours and the overseas ones, don't appear to see it that way. Bear in mind that we too are implicated, however, by having purchased computers with metallic and other parts in them, that originally were extracted via...mining. It's a complex world.

Hope that clears things up

manas. _/I\_

hi manas,
i look at this in the same way as food. appreciate the effort that went in to growing the food you need for survival, appreciate the mining effort that went in to providing the heat for your home. be thankful to live in a day and age that affords you the opportunity to practice the teachings of the buddha, use things sparingly and care for them. you can not control what others do, just change the way you do things.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:48 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
jason c wrote:do you live constantly worrying about the state of the planet?


Of course not, but I also don't sit still watching my sensations if some chaos is going on around me. I also plan on contemplating what to do in certain situations; I am not going to sit and watch sensations to figure out what to do in the heat of some crisis or trust instincts when chaos occurs.

jason c wrote:a recovering jew is a survivor of the holocaust.


No it is not. "Recovering" is a term for "getting over" something such as alcohol, drugs, etc.

jason c wrote:first hand experience. [regarding knowing that Jews are full of resentment]
yes [regarding making a generalization upon meeting a few Jews]


Incredible. Unbelievable.

hey david,
you are not practicing the teachings of the buddha, practicing observing sensations is an excellent way of practicing mindfulness and you can do it walking, lying down, standing, etc...
planning is "thinking" and should be done mindfully, while observing sensations. instinct is what i'm talking about in a life threatening situation, you would not have time to think, the instinct for survival would naturally take over and you would simply take action.
recovering is just a word david, if you are trying to imply that i do not care about the jewish community then you are mistaken.
most of the carpentry work i do is for the jewish community, i've met alot of jews, they are no different than any other race of people. and yes, some are miserable examples of the human race in their current mindframes, and some are very wonderful. so again yes, some are incredible and some are unbelievable.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:59 pm

marc108 wrote:
jason c wrote:what about the native americans and australian aboriginies, do they matter less than the jewish people in ww2? war is war, war is terrorism, to start a war against terrorism is to start a war against war.
pointless!
metta,
jason


those were not wars in the context that is being used here, but of course the Natives are no less valuable than any other person. WWII was not a war against terrorism, per say, it was a desperate attempt to stop a maniac from literally taking over the whole world. would it have been better to let hitler do his thing and hope for peace? of course not.

i can see, how a Buddhist would not want to participate in war or to kill... totally justifiable. but to make sweeping judgements that war itself is wrong, without paying attention to situation and context, is unwise.


so are you saying the natives welcomed the white man, and all his goodies(alcohol, disease, theft, deceptiveness, etc...). they were blindsided in the same way hitler went after the jews, but nobody wants to admit to that. war is war on whatever scale it happens. so i agree not paying attention to situation and context is unwise.

metta,
jason
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby marc108 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:09 pm

jason c wrote:so are you saying the natives welcomed the white man, and all his goodies(alcohol, disease, theft, deceptiveness, etc...). they were blindsided in the same way hitler went after the jews, but nobody wants to admit to that. war is war on whatever scale it happens. so i agree not paying attention to situation and context is unwise.


no. what i was implying is that the violence against the natives was not for the greater good (survival) of the world. what people were touching on is whether wars like WWII were justified, so using the violence against the Natives as a reference doesnt work in this context.

again, do you feel that WWII was unjust and that hitler should have been left to do as he pleases with the hope of peace?
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby santa100 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:34 pm

Jason C wrote:
"you can not control what others do, just change the way you do things."

Well, the US and allies did. They stopped Hitler from exterminating the Jews. Let's not forget 6 millions of them perished in Hitler's gas chambers. How many more would have to die if we did nothing? Please be honest in answering this question: Are you willing to sit perfectly still and mind your own business at all cost? Even at the cost of millions of human lives?
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:35 pm

jason c wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
jason c wrote: we should simply be minding our own business.
What is our own business? Do we ignore the screams of terror outside our apartment window because that is not our business? Do we ignore the person in distress? What is our business?


violence just seems to lead to more violence
So, we allow the violence to contune because it is not our business? What is our business?


hey tilt,
1. our own sensory perseptions.
2.sounds are just sounds how you percieve them is your business.
3.you may choose to ignore the person in distress or you may choose to take action. mindful action is the practice.
4. see answer to #2
5.see answer to #3
6.see answer to #2

metta,
jason
It seems you are seriously missing something here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby rowboat » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:44 pm

Well, the US and allies did.


No, the Allies, with help from the United States -- only at the end of 1941 -- defeated the Nazis. Before the United States was attacked by Japan in December of 1941 many U.S. corporations, including IBM* and Ford Motor Co.**, were directly supporting the Nazi war effort. After the end of WWII the United States took in many important Nazi scientists. Many of these Nazis became US citizens.

*In fact it was the IBM punch-card technology which made the Nazi Holocaust possible.
** Henry Ford, the giant of U.S. capitalism, was an avowed and very vocal anti-Semite. On his 75th birthday, Hitler awarded Henry Ford the Grand Cross of the German Eagle.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:49 pm

marc108 wrote:
jason c wrote:so are you saying the natives welcomed the white man, and all his goodies(alcohol, disease, theft, deceptiveness, etc...). they were blindsided in the same way hitler went after the jews, but nobody wants to admit to that. war is war on whatever scale it happens. so i agree not paying attention to situation and context is unwise.


no. what i was implying is that the violence against the natives was not for the greater good (survival) of the world. what people were touching on is whether wars like WWII were justified, so using the violence against the Natives as a reference doesnt work in this context.

again, do you feel that WWII was unjust and that hitler should have been left to do as he pleases with the hope of peace?


i see no difference in the extermination of the natives as in the extermination of the jews. just different methods. equally horrific in my opinion. practicing buddhists do not belong in armies or police activities, they are practicing a noble path a path leading to nobility.
metta,
jason
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:02 am

santa100 wrote:Jason C wrote:
"you can not control what others do, just change the way you do things."

Well, the US and allies did. They stopped Hitler from exterminating the Jews. Let's not forget 6 millions of them perished in Hitler's gas chambers. How many more would have to die if we did nothing? Please be honest in answering this question: Are you willing to sit perfectly still and mind your own business at all cost? Even at the cost of millions of human lives?


dear santa100,
practicing mindfulness does not only involve sitting still, it can be performed in every situation your body may find itself in, it is the practice of remaining present in all of your daily activities, and not being overpowered by your emotions.
a practicing buddhist is practicing the path leading to nobility, this is not strictly meant for monks and nuns, it can be practiced by all human beings and only human beings, this is why your human birth is so valuable and should not be wasted. you have found buddhism due to past kamma, begin practicing before its to late.
metta,
jason
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:05 am

hey tilt,
could you be more specific?
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby santa100 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:26 am

Jason C wrote:
"you have found buddhism due to past kamma, begin practicing before its to late."

Dear Jason C, I've already started. Have you?
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:40 am

Mr Man wrote:
jason c wrote:while contemplating past and current wars i asked myself, are there any justifiable wars that a practicing buddhist could support? violence just seems to lead to more violence, a visious circle. or have we just become so culturally attached to war that it has become a family or countries tradition(my father fought in the war and his father fought in the war.....). maybe it's simply that we respect our elders ,friends,fathers,wives, so much that we are afraid to oppose their sacrifices. it seems to me that practicing buddhists should not be supporting or taking part in any military or police activities, we should simply be minding our own business.

To come to these questions from the position of being a "Buddhist" is, in my opinion, already divisive and in fact is actually creating an unnecessary conflict, although we can certainly look to the wise for guidance.

Are we culturally attached to war? I would say that humanity is attached to war and that unfortunately war is likely to continue. War is an extension of our lust for power and control + ignorance.

Should practicing buddhists be taking part in war? Most probably not but they are. For some there is no choice.

Should we as humans feel a sense of responsibility to society? Definitely yes

Jason, should "minding our own business" be just allowing war to continue or should we be actively working against war (war on war)?

hey mr man,
sorry for the late reply i missed it, but you deserve a response. war on war in my opinion is pointless, an eye for an eye leaves a blind man. actively working against war is what i'm trying to do now.
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby jason c » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:48 am

santa100 wrote:Jason C wrote:
"you have found buddhism due to past kamma, begin practicing before its to late."

Dear Jason C, I've already started. Have you?


dear santa100,
thats wonderful, yes i have begun practicing as well, i really find the goenka method effective, which method do you practice?
metta,
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:11 am

jason c wrote:hey tilt,
could you be more specific?
metta,
jason
Yours is an one-eyed view of things. There is something you seem to be missing. You might want to start here:


    "'I shall protect myself,' in that way the foundations of mindfulness should be practiced. 'I shall protect others,' in that way the foundations of mindfulness should be practiced. Protecting oneself one protects others; protecting others one protects oneself. And how does one, in protecting oneself, protect others? By the repeated and frequent practice of meditation. And how does one, in protecting others, protect oneself? By patience and forbearance, by a non-violent and harmless life, by compassion and loving kindness." -- S 52,8
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby santa100 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:33 am

Jason C wrote:
"thats wonderful, yes i have begun practicing as well, i really find the goenka method effective, which method do you practice?"

Anapanasati has really helped me a lot..
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:18 am

jason c wrote:do you live constantly worrying about the state of the planet?


David N. Snyder wrote:Of course not, but I also don't sit still watching my sensations if some chaos is going on around me. I also plan on contemplating what to do in certain situations; I am not going to sit and watch sensations to figure out what to do in the heat of some crisis or trust instincts when chaos occurs.


jason c wrote:you are not practicing the teachings of the buddha, practicing observing sensations is an excellent way of practicing mindfulness and you can do it walking, lying down, standing, etc...


Of course I know that the practice can be done in any physical posture; it was clear in my post I was referring to just sitting while the chaos was going on. It is better to address the issue rather than to make sweeping allegations about someone's practice.

jason c wrote:
hey tilt,
1. our own sensory perseptions.
2.sounds are just sounds how you percieve them is your business.
3.you may choose to ignore the person in distress or you may choose to take action. mindful action is the practice.
4. see answer to #2
5.see answer to #3
6.see answer to #2


That is your practice in full? No brahma viharas, no paramitas, nothing else?

jason c wrote:actively working against war is what i'm trying to do now.


jason c wrote:
we should simply be minding our own business.


So in your view, we should work against war like you mention above or we should mind our own business? Which is it?
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