Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:28 pm

Hello all,

I have this question:

Is jump from wrong view to right view gradual or sudden?

What I mean is that does one begin with 99% wrong view + 1% right view. Then 98% wrong view + 2% right view, etc.... and until 100% right view and 0% wrong view?

Or does it jump something like 100% wrong view to 100% right view?


Thank you all,

Alex
"dust to dust...."

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:35 pm

I think Zen traditions especially seem to emphasize the one distinct moment of enlightenment, but most Theravadins I've talked to have described the journey as a gradual process, albeit one with occasional breakthroughs and jumps.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby bodom » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:09 pm

Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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bodom
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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby bodom » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:16 pm

Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.

— MN 70


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Alex123
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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:23 pm

Hello Bodom,

bodom wrote:
Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.

— MN 70


:anjali:


Does the stage of remembering the teaching = having right views? How does "penetration of meaning" occur? From ~99% wrong view to 100% right view?
"dust to dust...."

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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby suttametta » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:21 pm

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

I have this question:

Is jump from wrong view to right view gradual or sudden?

What I mean is that does one begin with 99% wrong view + 1% right view. Then 98% wrong view + 2% right view, etc.... and until 100% right view and 0% wrong view?

Or does it jump something like 100% wrong view to 100% right view?


Thank you all,

Alex


Right view is sudden. You just have to be told what that means. Then practice of jhanas and vipassana is gradual, like when you are pushing a cart and it gradually comes to a stop.

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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:20 am

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

I have this question:

Is jump from wrong view to right view gradual or sudden?

What I mean is that does one begin with 99% wrong view + 1% right view. Then 98% wrong view + 2% right view, etc.... and until 100% right view and 0% wrong view?

Or does it jump something like 100% wrong view to 100% right view?


Thank you all,

Alex

It depends on how aware you are, if you keep insights (understanding) in mind and don't let them be carried away. On how much you keep your attention to it (right view). There are no "happenstance". So how many % are you mindful? It might make *plopp* when the whole eightfold wheel could be established right now.

[Kaccayana:] "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

[The Buddha:] "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view."

— SN 12.15
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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reflection
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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby reflection » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:22 am

Is really that useful to know what may or may not happen with respect to right view? Best is just to practice the path, to plant the seeds. How fast the plants will grow is out of our control. Maybe it goes at a snail's pace, maybe it goes like a rocket. Maybe it goes gradually, maybe it goes suddenly. But at least we are on the path.

With metta.

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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:38 am

Greetings,

reflection wrote:Is really that useful to know what may or may not happen with respect to right view? Best is just to practice the path...

Given that Right View is the forerunner of the Noble Eightfold Path, and that there is no Noble Eightfold Path to practice without it, it would seem to be relevant.

Unless the path you speak of is of the every day garden variety. ;)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby manas » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:56 am

Cakkhu Sutta: The Eye
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2012

At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."



Different stages of realization towards stream entry itself, are outlined here.

metta,

manas

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Re: Wrong view to Right view. Gradual or sudden?

Postby reflection » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:43 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

reflection wrote:Is really that useful to know what may or may not happen with respect to right view? Best is just to practice the path...

Given that Right View is the forerunner of the Noble Eightfold Path, and that there is no Noble Eightfold Path to practice without it, it would seem to be relevant.

Unless the path you speak of is of the every day garden variety. ;)

Metta,
Retro. :)

Of course, there's something to say for that. But to know that right view comes suddenly or gradual is not really nescessary to define right view itself. It's a bit like asking if eating a meal will solve your hunger immediately or gradually. You can ponder about this question for a long time, but most important is to eat it.

That aside, to answer the question: Wrong view changing to right view is probably not what Alex is pointing to. This is a change that can be both gradual and sudden, but probably what he refers to is the change of conventional right view to noble right view.

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.


Noble right view is seeing the arising of the dhamma eye, which is stream entry. From that point the noble truths are clear, or otherwise often stated "whatever arises is subject to cessation". This is not just a theoretical idea or a belief but a change of perspective.

With metta.


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