Buddhist Pancasila

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Re: Buddhist Pancasila

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:59 am

Edited

Sekha wrote:I would nevertheless appreciate greater precision on this

well it has been a while since I was reading or have access to the literature on the subject to be able to find it now.

Sekha wrote:just to remind, in the sentence "one on whom wreaths (of flowers) have been spread", there is no mention of whose fiancée it is supposed to be, and I don't see how you back up the claim that interpreting it as one's own has to be "misrepresentation". If you refer to the no sex before marriage thing, I underlined that would be relevant only to a super conservative society, and whether it was the case at the time of the Buddha or not is only a side issue.

none of the others are refering to ones own, it isn't ones own wife, plus who spreads the "flowers", the person going to get married?
I also don't see any indication of possession in the pali.
but there is another problem with the hypothisis, if it meant no sex before marrage the Attha sila would not be necessary for non-married people, as the precept on celibacy is already there, the Buddha did not stipulate celibacy for all or marrage. I'll point you toward the Dhammika sutta again I linked to earlier on page one.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhist Pancasila

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:26 am

Sekha wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Sekha
Well just to note sex is an act described as an act one doesn't do in public within the texts, and the norm is to do it in private among all cultures I believe, so using this link seams tenuous to me.

depends how one understands "dissimulation". doing something in private to me is not quite the same as dissimulating it, and as we said, the focus is not on the act but on the intention. You may act privately, without having to dissimulate your intentions. The problem is dissimulating one's intentions.

The problem is Paṭicchanna = to cover over; conceal.
plus I know of no text which talks about concealing ones intention using the term Kamma (but that is only one meaning of the term you use and another is concealing in the outward sense), but just to note, ones intention is not known by others anyway so the text doesn't make sense when talking about actions, as intention on its own, without the manifest action. and I trust the Buddha would of used intention rather than the outward manifestation term if that was what was being meant.
although it seams strange to argue that sex between conscenting adults is going to be in any way not a hidden act as the norm.
Edit - but this still doesn't link hiding what one does and the precept on sexual misconduct.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhist Pancasila

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:12 am

Sekha wrote:I think the last one gives pretty much the spirit: "one on whom wreaths (of flowers) have been spread" is understood as referring to one's fiancée. So, here sex before formal "marriage" (ie. social recognition and acceptation of the existence of the couple) is included in sexual misconduct.

But the way the text is set up clearly states that it is inappropriate to have relations with "one on whom wreaths have been spread." So if that is referring to marriage, then the precept would be claiming that sex with your partner is unwholesome! Did I miss something?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Buddhist Pancasila

Postby daverupa » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:04 am

Do the garlands refer to some Vedic ritual perhaps, whereupon we might get the specifics?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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