oblations to spirit and deities

[mlswe]

how does one make oblations to spirit and deities ? .

"When riches are thus gotten, he makes the five oblations to kin, guests, spirit, kings and deities"

— AN 5.41

[gavesako]

This is quite an extreme example:

Payback Time - repaying your gods for a wish fulfilled

Many Thais believe that when a god or spirit makes a wish come true, they must redeem the vow made when they asked for it to be granted. One extreme example of this belief can be witnessed at Baan Jujaka in Bangkok. Here, thousands of Jujaka statues, a greedy old Brahmin who lived as a beggar in Buddhist legend, are worshipped. Visitors to Baan Jujaka usually redeem their vow by offering coyote dancing – a provocative dance with sexually explicit moves – to the beggar spirit. Video by Jetjaras Na Ranong.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/multimedia/v ... yback-time" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Compare "What Buddhists Believe" by K. Sri Dhammananda:

Many people, especially those with animistic beliefs, seek protection in certain objects around them which they believe are inhabited by spirits. The Buddha advised against the futility of taking refuge in hills, woods, groves, trees and shrines when people are fear-stricken:

No such refuge is safe, no such refuge is Supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is one freed from all ill. He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha sees with right knowledge the Four Noble Truths -Sorrow, the cause of Sorrow, the transcending of Sorrow, and the Noble Eightfold Path which leads to the cessation of Sorrow. This indeed is secure refuge. By seeking such refuge one is released from all Sorrow. -- (Dhammapada 188-192)

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=188" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other religions, the people worship their god by asking for favours to be granted to them. Buddhists do not worship the Buddha by asking for worldly favours, but they respect Him for His supreme achievement.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/177.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mlswe]

thanks for your time Bhante but i don´t find an answer to my question

i get the impression that you don´t think i have believe in kamma or am superstitious

i am coming from generosity for the depraved and worthy, proctective(edit: by protective i mean in a general sense over the dhamma, communites etc of which i might or might not be included but thats beside this point)

which instinctively felt like the reason for this instruction from The Lord Buddha but i might mishold it

[gavesako]

I am not sure myself but there is this mention of making oblations to deities ("bali" or offerings) which occurs at the beginning of the Ratana Sutta:

1. "Whatever beings (non-humans) are assembled here, terrestrial or celestial, may they all have peace of mind, and may they listen attentively to these words:
2. "O beings, listen closely. May you all radiate loving-kindness to those human beings who, by day and night, bring offerings to you (offer merit to you). Wherefore, protect them with diligence.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Perhaps the Sutta might give us a clue about the meaning of it?

[Cittasanto]

how does one make oblations to spirit and deities ? .

"When riches are thus gotten, he makes the five oblations to kin, guests, spirit, kings and deities"

— AN 5.41

The Sutta doesn't seam to give a clue as to what these offerings are, but do note that there are five beings to recieve offerings.
Looking at the pali
edited to show the more word for word in [...]

pañcabaliṃ kattā hoti. ñātibaliṃ, atithibaliṃ, pubbapetabaliṃ, rājabaliṃ, devatābaliṃ —
performs the five oblations: [offerings] to relatives, [offerings to] guests, [offerings to] the dead, [offerings to] kings, & [offerings to] devas.
ayaṃ catuttho bhogānaṃ ādiyo
This is the fourth benefit that can be obtained from wealth.[/b]

it looks like the english may not be too clear and it is

"they preform five (seperate) offerings. offerings to relatives, offerings to guests, offerings to the dead, offerings to kings, & offerings to devas.

Bhante may like to correct me here as he is far more experianced than I, but I believe it is this understanding that is meant.

[gavesako]

This translation is correct, but I don't think that the Sutta quoted is an injunction to make such offerings: it merely states that people who have some wealth tend to make these offerings. The Buddha did not try to stop people following their family customs, unless they involved things like animal sacrifice which goes directly against the morality he was teaching.

The case of the Jujaka spirit can be compared to similar behaviour that we can find in other places. Those people who are greedy will pray to a god or spirit who is also greedy, because they know their character and what they desire, so they can give him something in exchange. I think this kind of thinking we can find in many religions around the world where people worship different gods, because they ask them for a favour to help them with something in their life.

One really strange example is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_La_Muerte

San La Muerte (Saint Death)
To believers, San La Muerte exists within the context of the Catholic faith and is comparable to other purely supernatural beings such as archangels. The San La Muerte cult involves prayers, rituals, and offerings, which are given directly to San La Muerte in expectation of and tailored to the fulfillment of specific requests. Offerings can include (human) blood, alcoholic drinks, candles and other valuable objects. San La Muerte receives offerings in exchange for favors related to a wide range of personal problems: San La Muerte is said to help to restore love, health and fortune, to protect worshippers from witchcraft, to heal people upon whom somebody has cast the evil eye and to grant good luck in gambling. Next to these powers that are commonly attributed to folk saints San La Muerte is also said to be able to grant a number of requests that are connected to crime and violence: It is believed that the saint can bring death upon the enemies of his devotees, can keep people from being sent to prison and shorten prison terms of prison inmates and that he can help in the recovery of stolen and misappropriated items.

The San La Muerte cult is characterized by a moral code that must be obeyed. In the cult of San La Muerte devotees have numerous obligation towards the saint, which they must honor in exchange for his protection. While followers request favors from other saints they demand them from San La Muerte. Communication with San La Muerte takes place through prayers that are passed on between believers. The San La Muerte cult is based on punishment and submission and to be granted a favor the saint sometimes must even be threatened. Commons threats involve hunger or banishment to an uninhabited place until the favor is granted. When graces are granted, the saint will be rewarded and fed but never fully, in order to increase the chances of him soon being willing to grant another grace.




http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/docume ... muerte.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Santa Muerte cult could probably best be described as a set of ritual practices offered on behalf a supernatural personification of death. The personification is female, probably because the Spanish word for death, muerte, is feminine and possibly also because this personification is a sort of counterpart to the Virgin of Guadalupe. To believers, the entity exists within the context of Catholic theology and is comparable to other purely supernatural beings, namely archangels. The cult involves prayers, rituals, and offerings, which are given directly to Santa Muerte in expectation of and tailored to the fulfillment of specific requests. These bear some resemblance to other traditions. The origin of the cult is uncertain; it has only been expanding recently. The cult appears to be closely associated with crime, criminals, and those whose lives are directly affected by crime. Criminals seem to identify with Santa Muerte and call upon the saint for protection and power, even when committing crimes. They will adorn themselves with her paraphernalia and render her respect that they do not give to other spiritual entities.
People give numerous reasons for giving offerings to Santa Muerte. Some still consider themselves Catholic. Some say that they are disillusioned with traditional Catholicism. Others say that Santa Muerte has granted miracles and favors that other saints have not. Still others claim that they find Santa Muerte more welcoming because she does not distinguish between good and evil practitioners.

[plwk]

If these are of any help...
this, this: page 6: Starting with 'The departed here refers to...' up until '...nature and our environment' & this: point no.2, 'where prayer does not help' page 31

[mlswe]

thanks for your replies

how is offerings to the dead relatives and devas customary offered in for example Thailand?

kind regards