Juice drinks allowable after noon?

[Alobha]

I looked at the rules for juices according to Thanissaro Bhikku but still have a question:
There does not seem to be agreement whether boiled juice (which, practically every buyable juice drink is, that is prepared for long preservation times afaik) falls under the category of sugar and five tonics or falls under the category of non-staple food. How is this usually handled? I guess that juice drinks at the time of the Buddha may have had more or less fruitflesh in them, so classifying them as food seems logical. How about fleshless, industrial-processed juice drinks? Even if they are 100% juice and no sugar added?
It would seem to me that these would be considered sugar and could be consumed after noon, but fruitjuices taste like well.. fruits. I'd appreciate feedback on how this is usually handled and if possible, why.

Another issue is tea - as far as i see it, it would not count as a leaf juice drink because basically, one doesn't drink the juice of tea leaves but water. I know that monks do drink tea after noon so is tea just handled as water or medicine or under what category would it fall?

The context is that i'd like to keep the rules on food and not eat after noon, so I would like to know whether juice drinks and tea (black/green as well as fruit and herb tea) would be okay.

Thanks for your help!
Alobha

[David N. Snyder]

Most fruit juices as you say are not very fleshy (not much pulp) and would not be considered food. In practice I know that most monks and lay people who don't eat after 12 noon are generally okay with drinking fruit juice to keep hunger abated.

Tea is fine too.

[Cittasanto]

do you mean from concentrate?
I would go by the percent of solid fruit mass in the drink, any more than (for argument sake)20% is a no go area, but you have to judge whether or not it is just part of the product and would not be removed via filtration (I have spent allong time filtering OJ fwiw) or if it is extra and needs filtration.

Personally from concentrate juice I am not to bothered about so long as it is smooth, but it never hurts to have a filter to hand just to make sure.
I use one of these http://www.whittard.co.uk/equipment/tea ... eapots.htm and have two one for coffee (in use) and a spare incase I need to strain any other liquids or make a cup of chai.

I don't know how to answer the tea & coffee question though, except that the leaf juice would probably been something like aloe juice (edit - in its production) rather than tea, however if I remember it was classed as a lifetime allowable unless it was used with something which wasn't a lifetime alowable, but any reason I could think of would be pure guess work. although if you get your hands on WPN Korwat you can see a list of what was considdered lifetime 7-day... allowables as a helpful guide.

oh one juice to be careful with is mango juice, and anything which uses puree rather than juice.

[BKh]

It's good to keep in mind that the rules you are talking about are for monks and nuns. It's never spelled out for lay people exactly what not eating at the wrong time involves. It's not unreasonable to take the monastic rules as a guide, though. But you will find a wide variety of what is considered allowable in the afternoon between different monastic communities even within the same tradition. And you will find that it may even change over time at the same monastery. As a lay person it may be difficult enough just to stick to juice of any sort, pulp or not. Some monastic communities only drink clear juice. At the other end of the spectrum, some will drink pureed sweetened avocado.

I believe tea (as in black and green) is not allowed in Vinaya following Burmese monasteries because it is also used as a food ingredient. Strict Sri Lankan and Thai monasteries don't follow this reasoning and will drink tea (without milk) in the afternoon. It is not considered leaf juice. I think leaf juice would be something more like wheatgrass juice.

Some monastic communities will allow carrot juice (they say is similar to lotus root juice which is specifically allowed) but many do not.

Butter is allowed according to the Vinaya and can be used to add non-sugar calories to tea with some success. YMMV.

You may find jaggery a helpful part of your afternoon "menu" if you need calories but don't want liquid.

[Alobha]

Most fruit juices as you say are not very fleshy (not much pulp) and would not be considered food. In practice I know that most monks and lay people who don't eat after 12 noon are generally okay with drinking fruit juice to keep hunger abated.

Tea is fine too.

If one drinks fruit juice to deal with hunger, where's the difference between fruit juice and milk? Maybe i'm just a bit too strict about these things but well.

do you mean from concentrate?

Yeah, concentrate really. That's what most industrial juice drinks consist of anyways don't they?

oh one juice to be careful with is mango juice, and anything which uses puree rather than juice.

Very good tip, thanks for that. I didn't even consider puree being a factor
I just got the WPN Korwat Manual. Didn't even know something like this existed, thanks a lot!

It's good to keep in mind that the rules you are talking about are for monks and nuns. It's never spelled out for lay people exactly what not eating at the wrong time involves. It's not unreasonable to take the monastic rules as a guide, though. But you will find a wide variety of what is considered allowable in the afternoon between different monastic communities even within the same tradition. And you will find that it may even change over time at the same monastery. As a lay person it may be difficult enough just to stick to juice of any sort, pulp or not. Some monastic communities only drink clear juice. At the other end of the spectrum, some will drink pureed sweetened avocado.

Yeah, i'm a bit baffled. There are much more differences than i thought there would be. I just want to have some good guideline to accompany my eating behavior and reduce irritation from food-related thoughts.I guess i'll just not take any juice and go with tea or water. Seems easier for me.

[mikenz66]

I But you will find a wide variety of what is considered allowable in the afternoon between different monastic communities even within the same tradition.

Yes, it's interesting what some have come up with. Some Ajahn Chah communities are fine with dark chocolate and gummy bears http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gummy_bears in the evening, for example...

Personally, I follow whatever happens to be the local convention. Since interpretation differ so widely I see little point in attaching any significance in the details. The key point is that you have decided to take on a certain level of renunciation.


Mike

[BKh]

If one drinks fruit juice to deal with hunger, where's the difference between fruit juice and milk? Maybe i'm just a bit too strict about these things but well.

I don't think milk was a common drink for adults back then. And theoretically you could live off milk completely whereas juice not so much. Milk is much more substantial and provides nourishment beyond just dispelling hunger. I think.

Yeah, i'm a bit baffled. There are much more differences than i thought there would be. I just want to have some good guideline to accompany my eating behavior and reduce irritation from food-related thoughts.I guess i'll just not take any juice and go with tea or water. Seems easier for me.

Well, I don't think anyone has recommended "no juice" as a guideline. I believe the Buddha gave these allowances for a reason, namely to make the practice possible over the long term and in a variety of situations. If you can get by with nothing but tea and water then great. But there will probably be times when that isn't enough. In that case just drink juice. For a lay person in daily life, I'd say any juice that doesn't require a spoon and you'll be fine.

There is a pitfall in Vinaya traditions where people idolize the most strict interpretation they can imagine. Then it turns out to be impossible to follow and they give up. I don't mean to say that is what you are doing. But I would encourage you to figure out something that works well for you even if it is is not as legally pure as you would like. This is a luxury that lay people have, monastics not so much.

[Cittasanto]

do you mean from concentrate?

Yeah, concentrate really. That's what most industrial juice drinks consist of anyways don't they?

oh one juice to be careful with is mango juice, and anything which uses puree rather than juice.

Very good tip, thanks for that. I didn't even consider puree being a factor
I just got the WPN Korwat Manual. Didn't even know something like this existed, thanks a lot!

Particularly the long life drinks, but it is not always a sign of allowability, as some of the OJ with juicy bits are made from concentrate yet need strained. the Puree I think is a non-issue mango juice (for example) would have puree in after straining so if part of a coctail juice drink I am (as a lay person outside of a monastery) not to concerned with it being there, but on its own I wouldn't touch it!

if there is a speciality shop near you that sells tea & coffee keep an eye out for that strainer, it is very useful for drinks, making propper coffee or loose tea (some tea pots come with it, or similar attached, and cleans really easily.

The Korwat is out of date now, but it is still a reasonable guide for things done in some of the monasteries, and at least gives a quick source of how things can be done at a certain standard with one particular interpretation.
but just a little advise, try to use cream cheese rather than the harder verieties as it is easier on the stomach (I have found)

[James the Giant]

Plus the juice can't be made from anything bigger than your fist, right? So pineapple juice or watermelon juice would not be allowed.

But...
In my opinion it's better to go by the spirit of the rule rather than get too much caught up in interpretations and loopholes. Research why the Buddha made this rule, and follow the spirit of it.

[Alobha]

There is a pitfall in Vinaya traditions where people idolize the most strict interpretation they can imagine. Then it turns out to be impossible to follow and they give up. I don't mean to say that is what you are doing. But I would encourage you to figure out something that works well for you even if it is is not as legally pure as you would like. This is a luxury that lay people have, monastics not so much.

I just don't want to trick myself but i know what you mean of course. Last time i did the one-time-eater practice, not drinking juice was not a problem but denying food when everybody else was eating was. I will see how it works out, maybe i'll come to the conclusion that it's a bit too strict and not doable at all. I can still juice up my practice then

[David N. Snyder]

There is a pitfall in Vinaya traditions where people idolize the most strict interpretation they can imagine. Then it turns out to be impossible to follow and they give up. I don't mean to say that is what you are doing. But I would encourage you to figure out something that works well for you even if it is is not as legally pure as you would like. This is a luxury that lay people have, monastics not so much.

I just don't want to trick myself but i know what you mean of course. Last time i did the one-time-eater practice, not drinking juice was not a problem but denying food when everybody else was eating was. I will see how it works out, maybe i'll come to the conclusion that it's a bit too strict and not doable at all. I can still juice up my practice then

Good point by Bhikkhu BKh and good plan you have for the one meal with juice later. Ven. Dhammika discussed some of the extremism in Broken Buddha. It appeared that those who were most fanatical on some issues actually were the most likely to disrobe and leave the training.

In a somewhat similar analogous way, I have seen some who were exuberant about becoming a vegetarian. They dive right into veganism and then shortly thereafter go to raw food vegan diet. Then about two weeks later they are eating a steak. It is better to take it easy, not pushing too hard, especially as a lay person where there is not even any requirement regarding one meal or all meals before 12 noon. Personally I try to eat everything before 12 noon, but will drink juice in the evenings and even eat some whole fruit sometimes in the evenings and then also occasionally eat some solid food to make an exception as necessary in social situations.

[creekist]

I have heard that uddhacca-kukkuca is a hindrance.

My point: What do you think?

Follow your conscience, if you think it's reasonable to drink juice after noon, then do so. If you truly don't think it's reasonable, then don't.

Don't be too scrupulous. Relax.

[yamaka]

For Ajahn Chah tradition which I am following here, all the soft drinks,fruit juices(without pulps,and it's shouldn't bigger than a human fist), coffee without milk, 3 in 1 drinks, teas are legible to consume,if u are practising the 8 precepts.

[Alobha]

In a somewhat similar analogous way, I have seen some who were exuberant about becoming a vegetarian. They dive right into veganism and then shortly thereafter go to raw food vegan diet. Then about two weeks later they are eating a steak. It is better to take it easy, not pushing too hard, especially as a lay person where there is not even any requirement regarding one meal or all meals before 12 noon. Personally I try to eat everything before 12 noon, but will drink juice in the evenings and even eat some whole fruit sometimes in the evenings and then also occasionally eat some solid food to make an exception as necessary in social situations.

Certainly. It's going a bit offtopic but i already drank a cup of soft drink because a friend offered me one and it was quite hot yesterday. Ate some water-ice today and that is just fine for keeping away bodily discomfort, not for fattening or indulging the senses. I do get why there are allowable things for after noon and it makes a bit more sense now. It just helps with keeping the body calm along the day.

[gavesako]

For Ajahn Chah tradition monasteries in England, all juices (forget the thing about the size of a first -- it is an old muddle) are allowable in the afternoon, and so is soy milk usually mixed with tea.