Juice drinks allowable after noon?

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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby greenjuice » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:51 am

Milk is not allowed after noon? But it's noot food, it's a drink.
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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby cooran » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:27 am

Milk is a food:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk

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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:34 am

cooran wrote:Milk is a food:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk

With metta,
Chris


But then so is fruit juice!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby greenjuice » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:59 am

cooran wrote:Milk is a food:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk

With metta,
Chris

Sorry but whete does this article say that milk is food and not a drink?

Is there an explanation in the Vinaya pitaka of why is milk not allowed?
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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby Mkoll » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:07 am

Milk is a very nutritious complete food with ample fats, protein and carbohydrates. You could live on milk for a very long time if you supplemented the vitamins and minerals necessary for health that are not present in milk. Milk is what makes a calf gain 75 pounds per month. Milk and its derivatives like cheese are very satiating.

On the other hand fruit juice is a processed food that is almost all carbohydrate with negligible protein or fat. You would get a protein deficiency very quickly trying to survive on just fruit juice.

Sure they're both foods but milk is a food you could live on whereas fruit juice is not. I think the rule allows fruit juice but not milk for the above reasons.

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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:23 am

As I said, it depends entirely on which temple and the traditions interpretation of the vinaya you go for, all the local southeast Asian Therevada temples in my area allowed milk, to the best of my knowledge, but then again most of them allowed monks to handle paper money, but not gold, all comes down to interpretation. The rule said no Gold, not no money so technically money is OK, but of course in that time gold was the prima facta money, and so the spirit of the rule was no money, not no gold. As to the milk rule, we still haven't found the scriptural ban of that, have we, I do remember though in my high school my teacher trying to tell me that milk was a food not a drink, or something to that effect.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby khemacitto » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:39 am

lyndon taylor wrote:On the other hand, no one at my temple suggested that cheese was somehow permitted after 12PM, being a solid food, where as I said, milk and ice cream where permitted, some of this makes less logical sense and is more arbitrary, for instance I'm surprised at how relatively liberal the Ajahn Chan traditions are quoted as being on what's permitted after 12PM, I was under the impression that the forest monk traditions were a return to more conservative interpretations, maybe not???


Mv.VI.34.21 contains an allowance for the five products of the cow: milk, curds, buttermilk, butter, and ghee. The Commentary mentions that each of these five may be taken separately—i.e., the allowance does not mean that all five must be taken together. Milk and curds are classed as “finer staple foods” under Pc 39, but in other contexts they fit under the definition of non-staple food. All other dairy products—except for fresh butter and ghee when used as tonics (see NP 23)—are non-staple foods. One of the ten disputed points that led to the convening of the Second Council was the issue of whether thin sour milk—milk that has passed the state of being milk but not yet arrived at the state of being buttermilk—would count inside or outside the general category of staple/non-staple food under Pc 35. The decision of the Council was that it was inside the category, and thus a bhikkhu who has turned down an offer of further food would commit the offense under that rule if he later in the morning consumed thin sour milk that was not left over.


Given the fact that milk has its own category within the five products of the cow and was not listed as a tonic, I don't see any canonical support for the taking of milk after noon. I believe that the allowance of "cheese" after noon was the result of Ajan Mun and, following him, other Forest monks who included it under the category of butter, although I'm uncertain of its origin.

And yes, I do agree with your comment, and many others, that some of these rules seem somewhat arbitrary in terms of where the division is drawn, but I also feel that that is the nature of any codified rules, there are some strange or arbitrary inclusions and other strange or arbitrary occlusions, but the line must be drawn somewhere.

Also, the handling of money is not allowed as per the Vinaya and the application of the Great Standards. The rule in the Vinaya is Gold AND Silver, with Silver including all range of currencies then in use at the time. Logically, this would apply to all paper currency currently in use.

What I'm still curious about, however, is the actual Canonical support for Soy Milk drunk after noon. Anyone?
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Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby kmath » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:24 am

khemacitto wrote:What I'm still curious about, however, is the actual Canonical support for Soy Milk drunk after noon. Anyone?


I said this before -- I swear it has to do with the fact that bean broth is allowable as a medicine.
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