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Aggregate? - Page 11 - Dhamma Wheel

Aggregate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:32 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:34 am


Sylvester
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:07 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sylvester
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:38 am

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up. All that talk about "aggregating" and becoming when appropriated led me to think that you were pursuing an Idealist angle.

I could not help but notice that your signature no longer carries Wheeler's Participatory Anthropic Principle, which is a modern form of Idealism...

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:08 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

vinasp
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby vinasp » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:10 pm

Hi tilt,

vinasp: " ... And what is it that he extinguishes and does not kindle? ..."

tilt: "But what does the mean? Does it mean that the arahant does not feel, have perceptions, etc?"

I do not claim to understand passages such as these, but here are my thoughts.

FORM: The form which is said to be 'extinguished' is obviously not actual form.
My best guess, at present, is that it means 'conceived form ' [whatever that is.]

FEELING: In MN 59.16 the Buddha speaks of the pleasure of the
state called 'cessation of perception and feeling'. His explanation is that he
speaks of pleasure 'not only with reference to pleasant feeling.'

If it is possible for there to be pleasure which is not pleasant feeling then
vedana does not cover all happy states and is not used in the same way that we
use feeling in English. When defined in this way it is possible for the arahant
to no longer have any "feelings"(vedana).

PERCEPTION: In MN 1 perception is only mentioned in relation to the worldling.
Whether it can be completely absent will depend on what it is and how it is
defined. Could it be that perception is never used of the Tathagata or an
Arahant? Something to consider:

a) From MN 18.4 " ... in such a way that perceptions no more underlie that
brahmin who abides detached from sensual pleasures, without perplexity,
shorn of worry, free from craving for any kind of being."

One possible explanation is that the tathagata's state of mind is without any
"object". The aggregate of form is a mass of form objects. When these have all
ceased, then there is no form and no object. When there is no object, then there
is nothing to have any feelings about. Also, there is nothing about which one
could have any perception. When there is no object there is nothing to have
any volition in regard to. And when there is no object then there is no knowing
of an object (consciousness).

Regards, Vincent.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:33 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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retrofuturist
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:17 pm

Greetings LY,

Yes... yes it would. Well said.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:48 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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daverupa
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:02 pm

Now, my understanding is that nibbana is the cessation of upadana, not the cessation of khanda - that'd be parinibbana.

So I am confused by the description "stop functioning" in the quote, above. The Venerable seems to equate khanda with dukkha, such that the cessation of one is the cessation of the other. But we know that clinging is the fetter, delight is the fetter, not the aggregate, yes?

Is this related to the idea that perception-feeling-cessation is a requisite stop on the way to nibbana? Or something else?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:56 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

Nyana
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Nyana » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:02 pm


vinasp
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby vinasp » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:20 pm

Hi everyone,

"Good, good, bhikkhu! These three feelings have been spoken of by me: pleasant
feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. These three
feelings have been spoken of by me. And I have also said: 'Whatever is felt is
included in suffering.' That has been stated by me with reference to the
impermanence of formations. That has been stated by me with reference to
formations being subject to destruction ... to formations being subject to
vanishing ... to formations being subject to fading away ... to formations being
subject to cessation ... to formations being subject to change."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 1271, part of SN 36.11]

So, even pleasant feeling is suffering. And the only way that suffering can end
is through the complete and permanent cessation of all three feelings.

Regards, Vincent.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:30 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Nyana
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Nyana » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:16 pm


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Spiny Norman
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:15 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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reflection
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby reflection » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:24 am


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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:48 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

vinasp
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby vinasp » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:50 am

Hi reflection,

Quote: "Do you mean the permanent cessation of vedana? Doesn't that only happen at pari-nibbana?"

Yes. But pari-nibbana has two meanings. It refers to the complete cessation of the
five aggregates, but there are two ways to understand the five aggregates.

1. Form is ones actual body, feeling, perception, volitional-formations and
consciousness are also these actual things. When understood in this way the
five aggregates can only cease at death.

2. The five aggregates are all fabricated mental-objects. The "form" objects
are representations of things known through the five senses. The "feeling"
objects are representations of feelings, and so forth for the other three.

These mental-objects can all cease at any time, so there is no need to wait
until one's death. This cessation is called pari-nibbana. It results in the
state called nibbana without residue.

"And what is it that he neither extinguishes nor kindles, but abides having
extinguished? He neither extinguishes nor kindles form, but abides having
extinguished it. He neither extinguishes nor kindles feeling ... perception ...
volitional-formations ... consciousness, but abides having extinguished it."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 918, part of SN 22.79]

Note that when the "form" objects cease, actual feeling, perception, volition,
and consciousness, in relation to these objects, also cease. Another type of
consciousness takes over, this is the "object-less" consciousness.

Regards, Vincent.


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