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Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:31 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:It would be interesting to see some sutta evidence that classification, or even reification for those who might like to choose to do reification, is actually an obstacle to liberation. All you seem to be offering at present is a preference for a particular philosophical approach.
Observe the progression of refinement and the means by which earlier perspectives are transcended, such that there is view that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation' in the following sutta...

MN 121: Cula-suññata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:33 am
by pegembara
The five groups are the heavy load,
The seizing of the load is man[self].
Holding it is misery,
Laying down the load is bliss.
Laying down this heavy load,
And no other taking up,
By uprooting all desire,
Hunger's stilled, Nibbaana's gained.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have you laid down the burden?

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:38 am
by Sylvester
retrofuturist wrote: Sylvester ~ :strawman: ...it's all there in the suttas (e.g. SN 12.15), so long as you don't retrofit Mahavihara scholastic/philosophical realism back into it.
Thank you for citing the oft-abused SN 12.15. The subject of that sutta's injunction is not the Aggregates. This much is clear from SN 22.94. There the Buddha utters the, gasp!!!, Realist heresies of Aggregates existing.

If you bother to look at the Pali for SN 12.15, the locative case is used for loka, not the accusative case, meaning that the notion of atthitā and natthitā were directed not at the loka, but at something that took the loka to be self/Self.

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:39 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

Tilt ~
retrofuturist wrote:(And if you ask me a fourth time, you own any strawmen that may inadvertantly come from my explanation...)
tiltbillings wrote:I am asking a fourth time.
"Believing in aggregates" means to believe that those things classified under the khandhas-scheme have inherent existence, independent of any observation and experience of them.

"Believing in aggregates" means to think such things are in some way "real", independently of the act of their fabrication, which is dependent upon avijja.

"Believing in aggregates" means to think that the true nature of aggregates is to be understood through looking at and analysing them through the lens of perception with increasing levels of magnification, without actually questioning the distortion that the frame/lens of that perception itself introduces, and the volitional role it plays in forming samsara.

Pegembara ~ :goodpost: (it's a shame no one seems particularly interested in investigating what you and Darwid have been saying in this topic... but don't let that discourage you from speaking good Dhamma!)

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:45 am
by mikenz66
Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:It would be interesting to see some sutta evidence that classification, or even reification for those who might like to choose to do reification, is actually an obstacle to liberation. All you seem to be offering at present is a preference for a particular philosophical approach.
Observe the progression of refinement and the means by which earlier perspectives are transcended, such that there is view that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation' in the following sutta...

MN 121: Cula-suññata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the relevant refrain (which isn't much different from Thanissaro Bhikkhu's):
‘This signless concentration of mind is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.
Whether or not one takes those conditioned things as "real" doesn't seem to me to be of any particular significance. Can you give a sutta example which actually addresses this "reality" issue?

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:50 am
by mikenz66
For the benfit of those of us without photographic memories... [Edited to refer to the correct sutta...]
Sylvester wrote: Thank you for citing the oft-abused SN 12.15.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 12.15 wrote: "The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence or to non-existence. But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is, 'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.
...
See the discussion here about interpretations of this sutta (commonly taken to refer to eternalism and annihilationism):
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11269" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sylvester wrote: The subject of that sutta's injunction is not the Aggregates. This much is clear from SN 22.94.
SN 22.94 wrote:“And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists.
Sylvester wrote: There the Buddha utters the, gasp!!!, Realist heresies of Aggregates existing.

If you bother to look at the Pali for SN 12.15, the locative case is used for loka, not the accusative case, meaning that the notion of atthitā and natthitā were directed not at the loka, but at something that took the loka to be self/Self.
:anjali:
Mike

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:52 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Whether or not one takes those conditioned things as "real" doesn't seem to me to be of any particular significance. Can you give a sutta example which actually addresses this "reality" issue?
It's not so much whether they're "real" that matters (which is something of a dead horse that regrettably has worked its way into the present conversation). What matters is that "conditioned things" are recognised as such, and that the fabrication of these "conditioned things" is done by the mind, and fabrication is an active process habitually done under the influence of avijja. Hence my earlier point about verbs ("doing words", i.e. sankharas) and nouns ("things and objects", i.e. dhammas). As Darwid Halim said earlier, whether or not anyone else listened to what he said... "If we don't have the verb, it is illogical to have the result of the verb."

The "reality" aspect only matters to the extent that if you (explicitly or implicitly) put the either the "conditioning" or the rise-and-fall "out there" beyond loka, you similarly put any opportunity of observing and understanding the causality of conditioned experience "out there", where it remains beyond range.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:20 am
by tiltbillings
Thank you.
retrofuturist wrote: "Believing in aggregates" means to believe that those things classified under the khandhas-scheme have inherent existence, independent of any observation and experience of them.
Which is exactly the point I have repeatedly made about nibbana/amata/bodhi/asankhata in the "The Deathless" thread.
"Believing in aggregates" means to think that the true nature of aggregates is to be understood through looking at and analysing them through the lens of perception with increasing levels of magnification, without actually questioning the distortion that the frame/lens of that perception itself introduces, and the volitional role it plays in forming samsara.
So, with what lens do we look at the khandhas to eventually see them clearly?

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:28 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So, with what lens do we look at the khandhas to eventually see them clearly?
Short answer, paticcasamuppada (dependent origination).

Slightly longer answer, is through non-accumulation / non-clinging. The Buddha gave this instruction in relation to non-accumulation (of aggregates)...

SN 12.52: Upadana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dwelling at Savatthi. There the Blessed One said to the monks: "In one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena (or: phenomena that offer sustenance = the five aggregates), craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, and into it a man would time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, & dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — thus nourished, thus sustained — would burn for a long, long time. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena, craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Now, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — its original sustenance being consumed, and no other being offered — would, without nutriment, go out. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
To wit, it's not about having a more refined lens... it's about understanding the danger of the aggregates, the danger of accumulation, the danger of identification etc. and then going on to use that understanding in each present moment to reduce and ultimately uproot craving. Without proper understanding that samsara is self-constructed due to avijja, there will remain motive for cravings and accumulations. Were we to think samsara exists "out there", that is where grasping will go.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:34 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:The "reality" aspect only matters to the extent that if you (explicitly or implicitly) put the either the "conditioning" or the rise-and-fall "out there" beyond loka, you similarly put any opportunity of observing and understanding the causality of conditioned experience "out there", where it remains beyond range.
Please clarify what '(explicitly or implicitly) put the either the "conditioning" or the rise-and-fall "out there" beyond loka' means/looks like.

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:43 am
by Sylvester
mikenz66 wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 12.15 wrote: "The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence or to non-existence. But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is, 'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.
...
Sylvester wrote:

If you bother to look at the Pali for SN 12.15, the locative case is used for loka, not the accusative case, meaning that the notion of atthitā and natthitā were directed not at the loka, but at something that took the loka to be self/Self.
:anjali:
Mike
Thanks Mike for quoting SN 12.15.

Looking now at the ATI translation, it now becomes clear that even that translator has bought into this sunyata business. Contrast that translation with BB's, where the loke is faithfully rendered, versus the ATI translation which would only be correct if the Pali had read lokaṃ instead of loke.

And lord knows why he encased the 2 propositions in quotation marks (as if the sutta had reported views), when the Pali does not even employ the iti clitics.

Tsk, tsk. Has the rot crept in so much?

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:46 am
by mikenz66
Hi Sylvester, yes, heres BB's tranlation. Is this what you mean?
“This world, Kaccāna, for the most part depends upon a duality—upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world.
:anjali:
Mike

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:50 am
by Sylvester
Nah, my 2nd grumble was about the quotation marks in-
'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:55 am
by DarwidHalim
pegembara wrote:The five groups are the heavy load,
The seizing of the load is man[self].
Holding it is misery,
Laying down the load is bliss.
Laying down this heavy load,
And no other taking up,
By uprooting all desire,
Hunger's stilled, Nibbaana's gained.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have you laid down the burden?
This is main issue.

There are people who conclude here aggregates exist, due to certain words in Sutta, they conclude that aggregates are findable.

If your wisdom see there is aggregates, there is no way you can laying down the load.

Just like you see the play of light in front of your LCD and you say this actor, that actress, you confusely assert there is actor and actress in your LCD, which in reality it is just the play of light.

Just like that as well, you see the play of meat and bone, and you say this meat and this bone, you confusely assert there is self or human, which in reality it is just the play of meat and bone.

It is also just like that as well, you see the combination of the blood, the vessel, and the tissue, and you have this word meat, you assert there is this existence of meat, where in reality it is just the game of blood, vessel, and tissue.

Just like you see the play of red water, its thickness, its location in the body, and you have this word blood, you confusely assert there is blood, where in reality it is just the game of red water, its thickness, and its location.

Just because Buddha say this Sutta, there is aggregates, feeling, etc., we confusely believe there is such things. It is very pitty, we do not know how to see which Sutta is for which situation.

Buddha said eyes is empty, nose is empty, ... Mind is empty.
Buddha said this life is like an illusion, like the reflection of noon in the water.

It is foolish to even think there is a moon in the water, even there is an appearance of that.
It is also as foolish as that to even think there is a body, and other aggregates, even there are appearanceS of that.

Analyze! Is the word Sariputta said to Buddha and praised by Buddha.

Unfortunately, what we are doing instead of analyze is actually just comparing this word from this Sutta and comparing that word from that Sutta.

One monk said:
How foolish you are to see the truth from the words.
See the meaning!

Re: Aggregate?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:07 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:The "reality" aspect only matters to the extent that if you (explicitly or implicitly) put the either the "conditioning" or the rise-and-fall "out there" beyond loka, you similarly put any opportunity of observing and understanding the causality of conditioned experience "out there", where it remains beyond range.
Please clarify what '(explicitly or implicitly) put the either the "conditioning" or the rise-and-fall "out there" beyond loka' means/looks like.
An example comes to mind.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Let’s say someone dropped a bowling ball on your foot.

If viewed "out there"...

The rise-and-fall would be the crashing of the ball on your foot.
The rise-and-fall would be the foot being crushed under the weight of the ball.
The rise-and-fall would be the swelling of the foot.
The rise-and-fall would be the message sent through various nerves of the body in response to the above.

The foot was conditioned by the weight of the ball.
The body was conditioned to experience rigidity due to the pain of the foot.
The mind was conditioned to torment due to the experience of the painful foot.

If viewed "within loka"...

The rise-and-fall of various feelings (of pain, swelling, compression)
The rise-and-fall of various consciousness (of the six-senses)
The rise-and-fall of various perceptions (of recognition and apperception)
The rise-and-fall of various thought-formations (of anger, regret, frustration, aversion)
The rise-and-fall of various forms (etc.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, all those "rise and falls" and "conditionings" that take place in the "out there" example are given, and the poor bowler must naturally and necessarily experience a series of events and experiences because someone dropped a ball on their foot. To a person who holds this perspective, there is nothing that can be done - suffering is a fait accompli. This is the everyday view of the world in which liberation from suffering is not possible, because external events will occur to inflict it.

The "within loka" view is certainly a more refined one than the "out there" example. It can be used to observe the various rise-and-falls, and can see the three characteristics of them. Yet, if this is as far as it goes, and those aggregates are "believed", then it really hasn't achieved too much more than the "out there" example... because the aggregates are suffering, and the existence of aggregates is regarded as a fait accompli (despite all that might be said of their impermanence and not-self characteristics). This is because sankhara (conditioning) is not properly understood.

What I'm talking about in this topic, is developing an awareness that aggregates don't have to be taken as a given - they are not fait accompli. They are not taken up until they are taken up - so do not take them up... don't even form them in the first place! And if they are taken up, put them down! That is where methods like that depicted in SN 12.52: Upadana Sutta can bring an end to the "taking up" of aggregates. When nothing is taken up, there is nothing becoming, there is nothing born, and if nothing is born, nothing dies or suffers either (i.e. amata).

Hence, the aggregates are to be put down and the Buddha instructs us thus - that is the door to amata. If the aggregates are deemed to be a fait accompli, it is impossible to put them down. There needs to be way beyond "believing the aggregates", or there cannot be release. It may give rise to indignation in Sylvester, but it is how it is.

Metta,
Retro. :)