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Sotapanna and five precepts - Dhamma Wheel

Sotapanna and five precepts

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:14 am

According to Narada’s Manual of Abhidhamma (page 42) it says:

"A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts)."

Is it a necessary prerequisite that Sotapanna/Chula Sorapanna person strictly observing five precepts? What will happen to a Sotapanna person if he break one of the precepts?

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:30 am

It is generally considered a rule of thumb that a Sotapanna will not break the five precepts because he or she does not have the defilements capable of causing any actions in violation of those precepts - however, the sutta support on this is not necessarily rock solid, in my opinion. You'll get a bunch of different answers depending on who you ask.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


santa100
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby santa100 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:19 pm

According to MN 48. ( http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Kosambiya_Sutta ), when a noble disciple is endowed with these seven qualities, he is ready to realize the fruit of stream entry:

"The bhikkhu knows, I haven’t undispelled hindrances on account of which my mind would not see it, as it really is.These things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary...

...Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

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Mr Man
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Mr Man » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:16 pm

Why not become a Sotapanna and find out?

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:03 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:56 pm

Thank you lonesome and Santa. Your advise and links were very helpful. I am glad that I do not have to ask this question again and I can help someone else with more confidence in this regard now.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:43 pm

I found further clarification to my question in the following link.

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... tml#Vision

it says about the first stage of purification as follows:
Purification of conduct means here, in the case of male and female devotees (upāsakas and upāsikās), the acceptance of the precepts, and the proper guarding and protecting of their observance — whether it be the Five Precepts, the Eight Uposatha Precepts, or the Ten Precepts
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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reflection
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby reflection » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:43 am

The precepts are nescessary for developing the path and will become second nature along the way. :anjali:

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:25 pm

I found further information regarding this subject in the attached link. I hope that may some help for others looking answers to a similar question.

http://static.sirimangalo.org//mahasi/A ... 0Sutta.htm
The extract from this Sutta as follows.

GENUINE SOTAPAN

It is important to bear in mind that for the sincere yogī conformity to the moral precepts is to be natural and spontaneous and does not require deliberate effort or a sense of self-imposed duty. It implies moral purity rooted in freedom from evil desire and violent, evil passions. This is not to say that initially there is no need for the yogī to exercise self-restraint to make himself morally pure. What we mean is that he should aim at moral purity that is invulnerable to any violent desire to commit moral transgressions. Therefore he needs to examine himself to see whether he has achieved such kind of moral purity. Otherwise he may run the risk of being deluded like one of my former disciples.

Once a lay man came to me. He was not an ordinary person but an educated and well-informed Buddhist. He said that after he had meditated for several times he was declared to be a sotāpan by his teacher. In the Piṭaka there is no mention, no instance of such a verdict being given by Arahat other than the Buddha. We always consider it inadvisable to make such kind of judgment. On the other hand we only give sermons on the stages of insight-knowledge that will provide the basis for assessing one' spiritual progress.

Nevertheless, because of his strong faith in his teacher, the man believed himself to be a sotāpan and observed the five precept strictly. Then one day he reported his religious experience to an elderly monk. The 90-year old monk still living and well versed in the Piṭaka is intimate with me. The man told the old monk about his vision of the elements and phenomena evaporating during his practice of meditation and about the verdict of his teacher.

Then the learned Sayādaw said that he was talking nonsense and that there was nothing to warrant his understanding of the Dhamma, let a lone his claim to be a sotāpan Ariya. The disillusioned man told me that after his interview with the outspoken Sayādaw, he no longer cared much for the strict observance of the five precepts. I advised him not to do like that but to continue to lead a good moral life, whatever other people said about him. It is necessary for the yogī to avoid becoming a self-styled sotāpan like that lay disciple.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:14 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Parth
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Parth » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Don't remember the sutta but what I understand is that the things which a sotapanna can't do are :

1. Patricide
2. Matricide
3. Hurting a Buddha ( kill nobody can)
4. Cause schism in Buddha's order
5. Kill an Arhant

This are probably the worst crimes which a sotapanna can't do. On other things they may commit but will immediately recognise the mistake and make amends.

Regards

Parth

xtracorrupt
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby xtracorrupt » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:20 am

theres is no need for needing

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Ben
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:56 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Cittasanto
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:00 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

xtracorrupt
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby xtracorrupt » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:19 pm

theres is no need for needing

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:56 am

Most of the text I read describe the Sotapanna as the person who eradicated first three fetters.
Interestingly the page 320 of attached link says that Sotapanna also a person who has abandons unwholesome states such as greed, hatred, and delusion strong enough to lead to the plane of misery.
So this is a confirmation that a Sotapanna is a person who observes five precepts.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/printguna.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby santa100 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:32 pm


SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:44 am

"For the stream-enterer is called “perfected in the kinds of virtue”;
and likewise the once-returner. But the non-returner is called “perfected in concentration.”
And the Arahant is called “perfected in understanding”

Page:10
http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp207h.pdf
:reading:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:44 am

I found some info here:

For the eradication of the remaining seven Fetters a Sotàpanna
is reborn seven times at most. He gains implicit confidence
in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saïgha. He
would not for any reason violate any of the five precepts.He is not subject to states of woe as he is destined for
Enlightenment.

:reading:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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daverupa
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby daverupa » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:18 pm



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