Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

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nibbuti
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby nibbuti » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:15 am


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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Dmytro » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:55 am



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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:41 am

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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:21 am

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polarbear101
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby polarbear101 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:27 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby marc108 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:03 pm

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:55 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:33 am

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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Sylvester » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:57 am


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Dmytro
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Dmytro » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:24 pm

A passage from Buddhacarita might help:

atho viviktaṁ kāmebhyo vyāpādādibhya eva ca |
vivekajamavāpnoti pūrvadhyānaṁ vitarkavat || 12.49

49. ‘Then he reaches the first stage of contemplation, which is separated from desires, evil intentions and the like, and arises from discrimination and which involves reasoning. 10

tacca dhyānaṁ sukhaṁ prāpya tattadeva vitarkayan |
apūrvasukhalābhena hriyate bāliśo janaḥ || 12.50

50. ‘And having obtained this ecstatic contemplation, and reasoning on various objects, the childish mind is carried away by the possession of the new unknown ecstasy.

śamenaivaṁvidhenāyaṁ kāmadveṣavigarhiṇā |
brahmalokamavāpnoti paritoṣeṇa vaṁcitaḥ || 12.51

51. ‘With a tranquillity of this kind, which disdains desire or dislike, he reaches the world of Brahman, deceived by the delight.

jñātvā vidvān vitarkāṁstu manaḥsaṁkṣobhakārakān |
tadviyuktamavāpnoti dhyānaṁ prītisukhānvitam || 12.52

52. ‘But the wise man, knowing that these reasonings bewilder the mind, reaches a (second) stage of contemplation separate from this, which has its own pleasure and ecstasy.

hriyamāṇastayā prītyā yo viśeṣaṁ na paśyati |
sthānaṁ bhāsvaramāpnoti deveṣvābhāsureṣvapi || 12.53

53. ‘And he who, carried away by this pleasure, sees no further distinction, obtains a dwelling full of light, even amongst the Ābhāsura deities.

yastu prītisukhāttasmādvivecayati mānasam |
tṛtīyaṁ labhate dhyānaṁ sukhaṁ prītivivarjitam || 12.54

54. ‘But he who separates his mind from this pleasure and ecstasy, reaches the third stage of contemplation ecstatic but without pleasure.

tatra kecidvyavasyaṁti mokṣa ityapi māninaḥ |
sukhaduḥkhaparityāgādavyāpārācca cetasaḥ || 12.55 (57)

55. ‘Upon this stage some teachers make their stand, thinking that it is indeed liberation, since pleasure and pain have been left behind and there is no exercise of the intellect.

yastu tasminsukhe magno na viśeṣāya yatnavān |
śubhakṛtsnaiḥ sa sāmānyaṁ sukhaṁ prāpnoti daivataiḥ || 12.56 (55)

56. ‘But he who, immersed in this ecstasy, strives not for a further distinction, obtains an ecstasy in common with the Śubhakṛtsna deities.

tādṛśaṁ sukhamāsādya yo na rajyannupekṣate |
caturthaṁ dhyānamāpnoti sukhaduḥkhavivarjitam || 12.57 (56)

57. ‘But he who, having attained such a bliss desires it not but despises it, obtains the fourth stage of contemplation which is separate from all pleasure or pain.

http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... ok-XII.htm


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reflection
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby reflection » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:11 pm


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Kumara
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Translating "sukha"

Postby Kumara » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:22 am

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Sylvester
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Sylvester » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:10 am

Thanks Bhante, for your thoughts. I guess this is where we disagree on the classification of the jhana formulae's pīti and sukha within the kāyika versus cetasika division of feelings. Looking at the standard 4th jhana formula, it appears to me more plausible that jhanic sukha is kāyika feeling, as somanassa (the cetasika feeling) is said to have disappeared earlier.

Just for clarification -I don't follow the Abhidhamma and Comy in limiting kāyika feelings to those arising from contact at the 5 sense faculties. I take it that sukha/dukha and neutral feelings can also arise at the mind-base. I think it might be better to tie kāyika feelings with hedonic tone, while cetasika feelings are the affective sequel to the initial contact.

:anjali:

PS - Bhante bermastautin di Sasanarakkha?
Last edited by Sylvester on Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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manas
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby manas » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:49 am

Hi phil

you might find this useful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDmEFFfYNP0

In this talk, Ajahn Thanissaro discusses useful strategies for dealing with sensual desires, and how the pleasure born of seclusion (of the first jhana) is useful in this. Of course we also need to ultimately transcend that pleasure also, but hey, 'first things first'... :)

kind regards

:anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:26 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:17 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:17 am

Having taught meditation on and off for some years, I do find some people who are addicted to calm states, what to speak of pleasureable states. (I avoid using Pali terms to minimise (mis)interpretating.) Once that happens, they tend to are highly resistant to instructions to observe the nature of things. All they want to do is to get back there.

Some can't even get back to those states anymore, yet they keep on trying and hoping. One was eventually forced to meet suffering when she became clinically depressed. A "gifted" student of mine helped her through. Hope she has learnt the lesson.

Yet, I don't know anywhere in the Suttas speaking of such situations. Makes you wonder: Could it be that these aren't the same experience/practice?
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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robertk
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby robertk » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:02 am


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Dmytro
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Dmytro » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:01 pm



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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

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