Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

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SarathW
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Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:33 am

To me, the intermediate stage of sainthood Sakadagami, seem to be very subjective. Does significant weakened mean 99.99% or more? I also can’t understand the logic of him returning to this world only once. However I think this is a very important mile stone for path to attain Nirvana.
Your input is much appreciated.

I have extracted the following from the Wekipedia.

In Buddhism, the Sakadagami (Pali; Sanskrit: Sakridāgāmi), "returning once"[1] or "once-returner," is a partially enlightened person, who has cut off the first three chains with which the ordinary mind is bound, and significantly weakened the fourth and fifth. Sakadagamiship is the second stage of the four stages of enlightenment.
The Sakadagami will be reborn into the human world once more. If, however, he attains the next stage of enlightenment (Anagamiship) in this life, he will not come back to the human world.
The three specific chains or fetters (Pali: saṃyojana) of which the Sakadagami is free are:
1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
3. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will
Thus, the Sakadagami is an intermediate stage between the Sotapanna, who still has comparatively strong sensuous desire and ill-will, and the Anagami, who is completely free from sensuous desire and ill-will.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:35 am

The Sakadagami still has some sensual desire; his chains to the world have been weakened but they are not yet broken. But because he is upright and astute in conduct, he will not go to the animal or hell realms. He returns to Earth as a human once, whereupon he makes the effort to finally purify himself of sensual desire.

As for "How weakened are his desires?" I would say they are weakened enough that one more life of practice will completely destroy them. That's all that matters.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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daverupa
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:42 am

The sakadagami doesn't even lose any particular fetter(s) - it is indeed simply a "super-sotapanna" (a case of a sotapanna who only comes back once out their possible seven is a case of their having 'really' been a sakadagami).

So, it's an interesting term.

For me, their close association with Buddhist cosmology is something of a red flag; additionally, clearly delineated stages go a little against the grain as established by the gradual training, and the Buddha's talk of gradual improvement over time.

I tend to think that sotapanna does refer to right view, and marks the entry of ones raft into the river (per the raft simile). That the thing got inflated into a calculus is generally par for the course with Buddhist texts, it seems to me.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

SarathW
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:23 am

Thank you Lonesome I see your point.
Thanks you Deverupa. Do you mean to say that the person who attain Sotapanna Phala is moving to Sakadagami Maga and so on?

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daverupa
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:33 am

SarathW wrote:Do you mean to say that the person who attain Sotapanna Phala is moving to Sakadagami Maga and so on?


I mean to say that, for me, parsing which stage and whether its magga or phala is to get lost in minutiae. One can note the fetters which are addressed and in which order, but for the sotapanna-sakadagami split there is no clear differentiation to tease out.

It seems utterly irrelevant to practice, as well - sotapanna means you're guaranteed a way out, so establish right view and leave the rest to itself.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Re: Why Sakadagami return to this world only once?

Postby santa100 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:24 pm

SarathW wrote:
To me, the intermediate stage of sainthood Sakadagami, seem to be very subjective. Does significant weakened mean 99.99% or more? I also can’t understand the logic of him returning to this world only once. However I think this is a very important mile stone for path to attain Nirvana. Your input is much appreciated.


I think once one's established a firm foothold in Stream-Entry, s/he'd naturally have a much better idea about the stage of Once-Return. Let's tackle it one step at a time... :smile:


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