a meditation vision?

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a meditation vision?

Postby mmm » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:11 pm

some time ago, i was staying as a layman at amaravati in england. One evening, whilst laying down before sleep and practicing mindfulness of breathing, i experienced a very strange thing which i remember and reflect upon every day.

The mediation was appearing to be successful, the atmosphere in amaravati was so peaceful, my mind was easier than i ever remember. While following my breath, my body became strangely ... different to normal. It was like a fluid, almost like something entirely unconnected to what i considered as my reality. My body disappeared. My "head" (this is all i can say from what i experienced next) was then in a peculiar condition, i could feel terrific water? or air? pressure in my "ears" pulsing, maybe 10 or 20 pulses per second. The thought arose "this pressure might destroy "me" if it becomes more powerful. I had no fear, only a kind of detached concern. Then the pulsing pressure sensation stopped. A something (being? maybe) appeared on my left side and approached extremely quickly, as it passed my eye, a spiritual communication hit me " I HATE YOU". This thing, this tiny point of light then disappeared as it left my right side.

My reaction: Surprise

It reappeared from the point it disappeared and approached in the same way again at terrific speed and as it passed my "eye", the scream, "HELP ME" was given to me. The being continued to move and disappeared again on my left side.

My reaction: Slower kind of surprise

It reappeared again underneath my eye and travelled at the same speed upward, as it passed the scream, "IT'S YOUR FAULT!" this time.

My reaction: Hard to explain in words. I feel ashamed now to describe it but i feel i should. I was a little indignant, why blame me? i never met you before (maybe this being is in a state of woe because of my actions in the past?). I also felt confused, how can i help someone who is not even patient enough to stand still, i have no other information about you? Why hate me? I am just visiting. The vision then ended and i was immediately back in the dormitory, awake and alert, thinking "wow, what just happened?"

OK that's the end of my account, i just wonder if anyone experienced could give me some advice, maybe there is happiness to get out of this somewhere.

P.S. There is a possibility, maybe small, that this was a dream, but i am 99% sure it arose due to meditation.

Thanks for taking the time to read this :)

Homage to Perfected One.
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby Aloka » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:31 pm

Hi mmm,

If you were concerned about this experience and thought it had arisen during meditation, rather than after falling asleep, why didn't you speak to someone at Amaravati monastery about it ?

with kind wishes,

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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby mmm » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:38 pm

hi:) i did speak with one monk, unfortunately, the conversation did not give much insight on that occasion. Also, the few weeks i spent there were filled with so much delight in the Buddha-Dhamma i was uhm... swept away. The Sangha's excellence transformed my view of life and i considered that my experience could wait, at that time, due to numerous new and wonderful experiences i was having.

Metta :namaste:
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:51 am

Can you describe this light? It was just a point, or bigger? Can you tell somethink about a distance between you and this light in the space?
Your eyes was open or close? It this light depend on your eye and disapear when you move it? or you don't try to move it at this moment?
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby Ben » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:59 am

It sounds like a dream or hypnogogic state.
If it were me - I wouldn't be concerned about it.
Just some interesting phenomena rising and falling.
I would caution you not to invest it with any 'meaning'.
Wishing you all the best with your meditation.

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:31 am

It can be heavenly vision and sound due to two-sided (eye and ear) samadhi. (DN 6)
In this sutta Buddha explain just condition to heavenly vision and sound, without any importance to the practice, because eye and ear is impermanent.

Personaly, i see many kind of white lights, without sound or some knowledge what arise, and there is no any consequence due to this lights. So even if it's some living beings, they do nothing.

I read that once Ajhan Chaa said that for the moment there is nobody who was liberated by such kinds of lights. It's impermanent.

So in your place i would feel some compassion for this being (?) and see it like conditioned, impermanent, anatta fenomena.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:54 am

And also one last question, that i forgot, and which seems important;
you dont tell about fear, do you experianced fear?

If it is, you have to develop your sila, and have no regrets. By doing this way you become inaccessible to fear which arise from such kind of (mistic) situation.
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby Aloka » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:00 am

mmm wrote:hi:) i did speak with one monk, unfortunately, the conversation did not give much insight on that occasion. Also, the few weeks i spent there were filled with so much delight in the Buddha-Dhamma i was uhm... swept away. The Sangha's excellence transformed my view of life and i considered that my experience could wait, at that time, due to numerous new and wonderful experiences i was having.



Yes, Amaravati is a very nice place. I haven't actually stayed there though, I've just been on day visits.

My opinion is that we can get all kinds of experiences in the course of our practice and that its best to let them go again...and just keep practising ! :)

with kind wishes,

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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:24 am

:goodpost: :namaste:
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby Yana » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:24 am

Hi Mmm,

When your lying down to fall asleep you shouldn't try to be mindful of the breath.
Your goal is to fall asleep.

There is Sleep and There is Meditation. There's no sleeping meditation.
You can practice mindfulness while you walk, while you eat, while you wash the dishes and a million other activities but Sleep is one of the few things you can not. Why? Because you will have to lose consciousness and without it how can you practice mindfulness?

A good mind depends on a good body.so when it's time to sleep sleep. :smile:

so..What is it that Happens When you Watch the Breath while near sleep?
It's quite simple, you experience lucid dreaming.

There are some people out there whose main goal is to experience lucid dreaming,they practice awareness just like we do but for different purposes.They don't limit it to the 5 aggregates they are aware of objects outside of the body.And this can be very misleading.They are likened to being in an amusement park high on drugs and going nowhere.They want to have visions and astral travel and see this,see that,experience this,experience that.It sounds pretty cool but this is all dukkha.It's the same as watching too much tv or playing with a new gadget.As Buddhist we have to see right through that. We cannot afford to waste a rare human birth on distractions.Lord* knows how long we'll have to wait to get this chance again. :cry:

I understand your concern :console: when i first started to meditate i thought i could meditate while falling asleep and i will spare you the details but i thought i was losing my head.i literally stopped meditating all together.But i realized it's just a phenomenon...no different from any other so i watched it and let it go.Whatever happens in life, whether in sleep or wake just let it go.Nothings worth holding on to. :hug:

Practical solution:


Don't maintain awareness near sleep/in between sleep/or half sleep.When you sleep,sleep.Feel the drowsiness,let go and sleep.


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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:13 pm

Ben wrote:It sounds like a dream or hypnogogic state.
If it were me - I wouldn't be concerned about it.
Just some interesting phenomena rising and falling.
I would caution you not to invest it with any 'meaning'.
Wishing you all the best with your meditation.

Ben

:goodpost:
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:43 pm

Hi Yana,
Yana wrote:Don't maintain awareness near sleep/in between sleep/or half sleep.When you sleep,sleep.Feel the drowsiness,let go and sleep.

This depending on the approach you are using, on retreats it can be very helpful to maintain mindfulness at all times. The idea is not lucid dreaming, it is continuity. If one maintains mindfulness as one falls asleep it is easier to pick it up on awakening.
Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:That is why meditators should always note diligently. One should not relax one’s effort, thinking, “this little lapse should not matter much.” All movements involved in lying down and arranging the arms and legs should be carefully and unremittingly noted. If there is no movement, return to noting the rising and falling of the abdomen. Even when it is getting late and time for sleep, the meditator should not stop the noting. A really serious and energetic meditator should practise mindfulness as if forgoing sleep altogether. One should go on meditating until one falls asleep. If mindfulness has the upper hand, one will not fall asleep. If, however, drowsiness is stronger, one will fall asleep. When one feels sleepy, one should note as ‘sleepy, sleepy,’ if one’s eyelids droop, as ‘drooping’; if they become heavy or leaden, as ‘heavy’; if the eyes smart, as ‘smarting.’ Noting thus, the drowsiness may pass and the eyes may become clear again. One should then note as ‘clear, clear’ and continue noting the rising and falling of the abdomen. However determined one may be, if real drowsiness intervenes, one does fall asleep. It is not difficult to fall asleep; in fact, it is easy. If you meditate in the lying posture, you soon become drowsy and easily fall asleep. That is why beginners should not meditate too much in the lying posture; they should meditate much more in the sitting and walking postures. However, as it grows late and becomes time for sleep, one should meditate in the lying position, noting the rising and falling movements of the abdomen. One will then naturally fall asleep.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Vip ... ssana.html

:anjali:
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby mmm » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:21 pm

wonderful replies, thank you to everyone. I feel like i should intensify my practice the more i am surrounded by kalyanamitta :thanks:
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby Yana » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:48 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Yana,
Yana wrote:Don't maintain awareness near sleep/in between sleep/or half sleep.When you sleep,sleep.Feel the drowsiness,let go and sleep.

This depending on the approach you are using, on retreats it can be very helpful to maintain mindfulness at all times. The idea is not lucid dreaming, it is continuity. If one maintains mindfulness as one falls asleep it is easier to pick it up on awakening.

Hi Mikenz,

I understand the importance of maintaining continuity having practiced this before,
but it is a set back if you haven't developed one pointed concentration. It is much better to develop mindfulness in a wake position than it is near sleep.Because,

What Happens When We Meditate?
Sometimes our mind wanders off but that's okay because we can bring it back to the object of our meditation.when we are near sleep we gradually lose control of our ability to bring the mind back to our object of meditation.So chances are we will run away with our wandering thoughts which often manifests itself through lucid dreaming because the mind,through active awareness is alert.

Lucid dreaming is wonderful experience for some people but not when we are aware of entering it.Often bringing up, just like Mmm mentioned,the sensation of being pressured out of the body,pulsing,etc or terrifying images.Most people even those actively seeking to lucid dream have trouble or can't discern the beginning of a dream but given the amount of intensive training Buddhists have in meditation, mindfulness and in developing powerful concentration it is within our reach or beneath our reach talking in terms of mental abilities and Right View.

Of course there is nothing wrong with maintaining continuity if you have developed one pointed concentration and can let go of every seriously strange things you encounter whether imaginary or real But if you haven't got to that stage yet than it can get in the way of your practices.For someone who is an extremely advanced mediator and only losses awareness during those few moments of deep sleep this is not a problem,he notes the beginning of the dream,the middle of the dream,and the ending of the dream.In fact he doesn't discern the dream as being any different from the waking state.He doesn't react to any thing he sees,any sounds,any beings, anything he just notes it and lets it go.because it's just a continuity no different from the waking state.

But If your not at this stage then you can just imagine the problem,when you start to see strange things and because one pointed concentration is not strong enough, you can't note and let go of it.This can give rise to fear,worry,restlessness and attachments.And in sleep it's twice the burden because you don't have your fully normal waking abilities to maintain concentration or pull yourself back together.Unless of course your a very advanced meditator or just feel like your up for the challenge, which unfortunately i am not.

We all should practice Mindfulness but it's better to practice it in a position where there are less distractions,obstacles and hindrances.

For example:

When you meditate do you find a quiet and solitary place to meditate?
Of course there's nothing wrong with being thrown in the middle of a busy street with crowds of people,loud music,cars,smoke,fumes,noise,while sustaining a cut wound on one leg etc..
So why don't you?
Because It's hard to concentrate.
The only thing that can guarantee success in both situations is our ability to maintain one pointed concentration.
If you have this then doesn't matter where you are.
If you don't then you should seek environments that can support,give rise to,and sustain one pointed concentration.Otherwise you'll end up dreading sleep like i did in the past,or still attached to the phenomenon like Mmm.Different people need different approaches and maintaining mindfulness of the breath near sleep is not for everybody.I know through personal observations that it's not for me.. not until i progress at least.The truly fortunate ones in my personal opinion are the people who can practice meditation and mindfulness in peace without experiencing any of these obstacles.

Metta
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby ground » Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:53 am

mmm wrote:OK that's the end of my account, i just wonder if anyone experienced could give me some advice, maybe there is happiness to get out of this somewhere.

Don't bother. The procedures running within the brain machine cannot be known by themselves. :sage:
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:23 am

Yana wrote:I understand the importance of maintaining continuity having practiced this before,
but it is a set back if you haven't developed one pointed concentration. It is much better to develop mindfulness in a wake position than it is near sleep....:

Well, of course this is a matter of opinion and experience and different teachers and student are likely to have different advice. Personally I don't do one-pointed concentration much. And I've never had a lucid dream or the other specific problems you describe. Of course, everyone has obstacles, but I've not had problems associated with maintaining attention as much as possible when close to sleep.

:anjali:
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby DAWN » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:37 am

Yana wrote:We all should practice Mindfulness but it's better to practice it in a position where there are less distractions,obstacles and hindrances.

:anjali:


I think it depend on what is the aim of practice.

If the aim is "relaxing" - calm is better.
If the aim is developing - obstacles are the factor of developing.

More wood, more fire.

IMO
:namaste:
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby Aloka » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:16 pm

mmm wrote:wonderful replies, thank you to everyone. I feel like i should intensify my practice the more i am surrounded by kalyanamitta :thanks:



You're very welcome, mmm. :)
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Re: a meditation vision?

Postby Yana » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:41 am

mikenz66 wrote:Well, of course this is a matter of opinion and experience and different teachers and student are likely to have different advice. Personally I don't do one-pointed concentration much. And I've never had a lucid dream or the other specific problems you describe. Of course, everyone has obstacles, but I've not had problems associated with maintaining attention as much as possible when close to sleep.

:anjali:
Mike


Dear Mike,

Mike,your a fortunate man :anjali: I realized not a lot of people share the same obstacles which is incredibly frustrating,but Mmm's experience is very similar to mine so i felt compelled to hand her some practical approach that has worked for me.But i don't know if it will work for her perfectly.Ultimately,each of us has to investigate on our own and see what works and what doesn't.Of course i would never object to any one who wants to practice mindfulness of the breath near sleep. If they have no such obstacle then i urge them to practice mindfulness all the time. :meditate:

Other practical approaches that has helped me deal with this problem is focusing on Sila,Dana,and Virtue.So Mmm,if you deal with this obstacle regularly and it really inhibits you like it inhibits me from meditating,it would be beneficial to focus on Sila(Morality),Dana (Generosity),and Virtue and maybe increase your time on sitting meditation or walking meditation.Or just make use of the precious time your have when your awake. :hug:

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