"the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching"

[ccharles]

20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?

[santa100]

An alternative translation from F.L.Woodward's "The Book of Gradual Sayings":

Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two?
The wrong expression of the letter of the text and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.
Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two?
The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also right. These two things conduce to the estalishment... of true Dhamma

So it may apply to any case of wrong rendering or wrong interpretation of the Buddha's teaching..

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

"For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.

A nice reminder of the primacy of Right View in the Noble Eightfold Path.

Metta,
Retro.

[ccharles]

Is this referring to the "letter" used in communicating the Buddha's discourses or the "letter" used in any communication of Dhamma?

[alan...]

20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?

my guess is it's about oral transmission. passing on each sutta word for word EXACTLY as they are supposed to be.

today we have to worry less as they are already recorded. there are some small differences between editions of the pali canon but it's mostly the same. so it's already over with. anything confused is stuck that way. although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight! what a guy! seriously amazing man. he made some really interesting finds when translating the anguttara nikaya according to it's introduction.

[Cittasanto]

20. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and disappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the displacement of words and letters that do not convey the meaning and the displaced words and letters not conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the confusion and the disappearance of the Good Teaching.

21 Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. What two? It is the correct placement of words and letters that convey the meaning and the nondisplaced words and letters conveying the meaning to the necessary end. Bhikkhus, these two things are conducive to the nonconfusion and the nondisappearance of the Good Teaching. AN2.2:20:21

Is this referring to the Suttas specifically, or anytime a teacher speaks on (the true) dhamma?

I would say it is some of each.
or more specifically, this could refer to those instances of a disciple saying something was taught by the Buddha when it wasn't. but to assume it is not inclusive of any utterance that is true Dhamma-vinaya would be mistaken.

There are other verses in AN2 which point out similar things like who misrepresents the Dhamma.... essentially looking at the same problem from a different angle.

[danieLion]

although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!

He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.

[danieLion]

AN2.2:20:21

bad link

[ccharles]

although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!

He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.

Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?

AN2.2:20:21

bad link

In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20

[alan...]

although bhikkhu bodhi is going so far as to compare the agamas and multiple editions of the pali canon to keep everything straight!

He's piggy-backing Reverend Analayo when it comes to the Agamas, and probably to a large extent with the multiple Pali "canon" editions.

okay well either way he's contributing a lot of hard work and his translations are available everywhere, where are analayo's complete translation nikayas toe be found? also when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"? if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.

[danieLion]

Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piggyback

In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20

so there's not a good link?

[danieLion]

when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"?

yes

if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.

You and Kim O'Hara. It has nothing to do with the clergy or Christians.

rev·er·end
adjective \ˈrev-rənd, ˈre-və-; ˈre-vərnd\
Definition of REVEREND
1: worthy of reverence : revered

see also: The use of "Bhante"

[ccharles]

Can you explain what you mean by "piggy-backing"?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piggyback

But in the way you used the term, are you saying it's as if Bhikkhu Bodhi is "riding on the back" of Bhikkhu Analayo or Bhikkhu Analayo is "riding on the back" of Bhikkhu Bodhi?

In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, these phrases aren't split into two suttas, but are placed within a single sutta, AN 2.20

so there's not a good link?

I would post Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation if I knew I wasn't violating any possible copyright issues. Does anyone here know if this would be violating any copyright issues?

[mikenz66]

Hi ccharles,

I think that posting extracts, or small suttas such as that, would fall under fair use in most jurisdictions.


Mike

[ccharles]

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of AN 2.20:

“Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? [59] Badly set down words and phrases and badly interpreted meaning.238 When the words and phrases are badly set down, the meaning is badly interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the decline and disappearance of the good Dhamma. “Bhikkhus, there are these two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma. What two? Well-set down words and phrases and well-interpreted meaning.239 When the words and phrases are well set down, the meaning is well interpreted. These are the two things that lead to the continuation, non-decline, and non-disappearance of the good Dhamma.”

[danieLion]

What do the behaviors of "setting down words" and "interpreting meanings" look like to the average observer? Please include in your description what they look like when done "badly" and and what they look like when done "well." In other words, four behavioral descriptions.

[alan...]

when you say "reverend analayo" are you talking about the guy who wrote "satipatthana: the direct path to realization"?

yes

if so, why not "bhikkhu analayo"? is he also a christian monastic of some kind? not that that word is reserved for them but that's the most common usage. if it just said "reverend johnson" or something i wouldn't even think for a second you were talking about anyone but a christian monastic, keeping his ordained name in the mix makes me think of a buddhist/christian of some kind. not that it matters, i'm just confused.

You and Kim O'Hara. It has nothing to do with the clergy or Christians.

rev·er·end
adjective \ˈrev-rənd, ˈre-və-; ˈre-vərnd\
Definition of REVEREND
1: worthy of reverence : revered

see also: The use of "Bhante"

you are absolutely correct. the same is true of many words. there are countless words that could be used for multiple things but usually are not as it creates confusion. if i wrote "ajahn vijju teaches near me." everyone would assume he is a buddhist teacher, but since the word literally means "teacher" i could just be talking about a college teacher of history or something so i wouldn't use "ajahn" in that way unless talking about a buddhist teacher to avoid confusion. as it is i have had "satipatthana" by analayo on my bookshelf right at my elbow every time you mentioned him but i was convinced you were talking about someone else lol!

the same goes for different traditions, it would be confusing to say "ajahn sheng yen", it's appropriate, he is a teacher of buddhism but this would make people think he is in the thai tradition when he is chinese chan (or taiwanese). yes the word fits but makes it confusing. i realize these words are of different languages but on this forum it's an appropriate example as people on here use these titles before teachers names to differentiate between traditions, and of course to show respect, so for many on here they are known words that are not used interchangeably. so it's a contrast similar to "reverend" and "bhikkhu".

certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it. out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?

[danieLion]

certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it.

What's the opposite of "literal"?

out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?

I neither know (I recall Bikkhu and maybe Ven.) nor care. I trust that if I ever have the chance to communicate with him and refer to him as Reverend he won't care either. And if for some strange reason contrary to what I know about him he's uptight or a jerk about it, and actually does care, I'll re-assess at that time.

[alan...]

certainly "reverend" is appropriate for analayo if you want to be literal about it.

What's the opposite of "literal"?

out of curiosity, does he refer to himself in that way or does he call himself "bhikkhu" or "venerable" or another word like that? what about official documents at the monastery where he is ordained, and his publications?

I neither know (I recall Bikkhu and maybe Ven.) nor care. I trust that if I ever have the chance to communicate with him and refer to him as Reverend he won't care either. And if for some strange reason contrary to what I know about him he's uptight or a jerk about it, and actually does care, I'll re-assess at that time.

opposite of literal would be... "ambiguous" perhaps?

surely he wouldn't care. however i imagine if he was walking down a crowded street and you were a block behind him and yelled "reverend" he wouldn't turn, but "bhikkhu" or "venerable" would likely catch his ear. oh well, it doesn't matter anyway. thanks for the patient responses .

[daverupa]

opposite of literal would be...

...figurative.