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Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:47 am
by retrofuturist
ground wrote:
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. ...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:15 pm
by Viscid
Why do people (particularly the Mahayana) identify the world as illusory to begin with? What are they experiencing, or what insight are they having? If they're in error, why do they make this error?

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:33 pm
by tiltbillings
Viscid wrote:Why do people (particularly the Mahayana) identify the world as illusory to begin with? What are they experiencing, or what insight are they having? If they're in error, why do they make this error?
I am not sure that Mahayana sees the world as illusion. It is like an illusion, which is different than being an illusion. In the Prajnaparamita Sutras, other than in a few poetic bits, it is stated that it is like an illusion.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:47 pm
by Viscid
tiltbillings wrote:
Viscid wrote:Why do people (particularly the Mahayana) identify the world as illusory to begin with? What are they experiencing, or what insight are they having? If they're in error, why do they make this error?
I am not sure that Mahayana sees the world as illusion. It is like an illusion, which is different than being an illusion. In the Prajnaparamita Sutras, other than in a few poetic bits, it is stated that it is like an illusion.
Ah, okay. I suppose it's 'illusory' in the sense that our experience of the world is distorted, and we're varyingly ignorant of what's actually true of it.. but being 'illusory' doesn't necessarily mean the world is 'unreal' as being an 'illusion' would imply.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:57 pm
by DAWN
Buddha said that all phenomenas are conditioned.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:06 pm
by mikenz66
Viscid wrote: Ah, okay. I suppose it's 'illusory' in the sense that our experience of the world is distorted, and we're varyingly ignorant of what's actually true of the world.. but being 'illusory' doesn't necessarily mean the world is 'unreal' as being an 'illusion' would imply.
That's the way I understand it. What is or isn't "real" is not, it seems to me, the issue. Seeing though those distortions is the issue.
DAWN wrote:Buddha said that all phenomenas are conditioned.
Yes, our (distorted) perceptions (experiences above) are conditioned phenomena...

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:24 pm
by SamKR
SarathW wrote:Hi Tilt
Do you know the pali word use in Sutta for "Magic Trick"?
I hope you don't mind me replying your question. :)
The Pali phrase used for "consciousness, a magic trick" in the following sutta is Māyūpamañca viññāṇaṃ. So, it's close to Maya
Idamavoca bhagavā. Idaṃ vatvāna sugato athāparaṃ etadavoca satthā –

‘‘Pheṇapiṇḍūpamaṃ rūpaṃ, vedanā bubbuḷūpamā [bubbulūpamā (sī.), pubbuḷopamā (ka.)];
Marīcikūpamā saññā, saṅkhārā kadalūpamā;
Māyūpamañca viññāṇaṃ, desitādiccabandhunā.

‘‘Yathā yathā nijjhāyati, yoniso upaparikkhati;
Rittakaṃ tucchakaṃ hoti, yo naṃ passati yoniso.

http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0303m.mul0.xml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, said further:

Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:50 pm
by tiltbillings
SamKR wrote: Form is like a glob of foam . . . .
In terms of the OP, you missed the most important word in thewhole if the quote: like.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:58 pm
by SamKR
tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote: Form is like a glob of foam . . . .
In terms of the OP, you missed the most important word in thewhole if the quote: like.
Of course, form is not a glob of foam, it's like a glob of foam.
feeling is like a bubble
perception is like a mirage
fabrications are like a banana tree
consciousness is like a magic trick

So, as for the OP, the answer would be, in my opinion: The Buddha said: The world (consciousness) is [like a] magic trick.
And, a magic trick is/creates illusion(s). One of the meanings of Maya is illusion. In my native language Maya , besides illusion, also means love. :)
Ignorance (Avijja) is close to Maya (illusion) or Moha in the sense that because of avijjā there is Maya (illusion/magic trick). So, avijjā paccaya Saṅkhāra and viññāṇa makes sense.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:23 pm
by tiltbillings
SamKR wrote: One of the meanings of Maya is illusion.
I do not know what the background of SarathW is. In (some forms of) Hinduism the world is Maya which points to an ultimate, truly true true reality atman/brahman, which is, of course, not the teachings ofthe Buddha.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:38 am
by SarathW
tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote: One of the meanings of Maya is illusion.
I do not know what the background of SarathW is. In (some forms of) Hinduism the world is Maya which points to an ultimate, truly true true reality atman/brahman, which is, of course, not the teachings ofthe Buddha.
Hi Tilt
I am a Sri Lankan and my native language is Sinhalease. We use Maya in many ways
- Magician
- A woman who try to seduce a man by false pretense

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:16 am
by SamKR
tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote: One of the meanings of Maya is illusion.
I do not know what the background of SarathW is. In (some forms of) Hinduism the world is Maya which points to an ultimate, truly true true reality atman/brahman, which is, of course, not the teachings ofthe Buddha.
I agree. Any talk about Maya in the context of Hinduism usually involves talk about Atman/Paramatman/Brahman.
So, when we use this word Maya in the context of Theravada Buddhism we need to be careful.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:17 am
by vinasp
Hi SarathW,

This passage may be of interest:

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II.48 Rohitassa (pali text) translated by Nanananda in Concept and Reality page 83.

AN 4.45 Link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards, Vincent.

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:19 am
by hermitwin
it is all a matter of perspective.
is a man real or illusion?
if you see a man as nothing more than a collection sub-atomic particles.
then which is the illusion and which the reality???

Re: Did Buddha say “The world is but an illusion?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:32 am
by DAWN
hermitwin wrote:it is all a matter of perspective.
is a man real or illusion?
if you see a man as nothing more than a collection sub-atomic particles.
then which is the illusion and which the reality???
It's a good questioning.

What part of a man is considered as man.