kamma and social justice

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

kamma and social justice

Postby sanblvd » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:49 am

Here is my understanding, when you act out to do negative things for the sake of short term/financial benefit, you will plant a seed which will result in a fruit which will come back to hurt you.

For example, you have a test tomorrow and instead of study for it, you go out party with friend, as a result you will receive pleasure of fun, in the end because of not studying you fail the test which is the fruit.

Thing that you have done to yourself are quite easily explain, because it often involves you and something else that is not a sentient being. What about things that you have done to another person who is also able to think and act?

For example if you harm someone for your self benefit, such as if you make a living by trafficking young girls into sexual slavery? You receives financial gain for now, but person that you traffic will feel much suffering as the result of your action. So in this case how will you receive the fruit of your bad action?

1. You will feel remorse for the evil you have done and it will haunt your mental being. This is what a lot of people say what will happen to you, BUT is this the only consequence you will suffer?

2. You might get caught by the police and be charge with a crime and serve out your punishment from jail. This is social justice and most likely outcome as well.

3. The victim that you traffic might one day catch up to you and harm you for what you have done to her.

4. You cover your track well and never got caught by authorities or someone who seek revenge, as a result in your next rebirth, you will feel the same pain which you have caused others in your previous rebirth.

BUT what is the karmic result of your action on your victims?

For example if you cause harm to another person by killing him, does that person will form the desire to kill you as what you have done to him? Like... in your next rebirth when you meet that person's rebirth, will that person be place into the position of someone that automatically hates you? For example... you being an American Marine and that person being the Taliban and you both meet on the battlefield?

Or when your victim rebirths, he or she will not suffer any resentment towards you, because you will somehow receive the karma feedback for killing him in other ways?

Basically, when you harm another person who have just as much right to exist as you do, how will you experience the fruit of what you done? And how the other person be effected by your action in the Karmic way?
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Re: kamma and social justice

Postby daverupa » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:19 pm

sanblvd wrote:Basically, when you harm another person who have just as much right to exist as you do, how will you experience the fruit of what you done? And how the other person be effected by your action in the Karmic way?


These are very engaging questions. However,

AN 4.77 wrote:"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: kamma and social justice

Postby sanblvd » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:06 am

Wow.... that sound like a cop out, what is the difference between that and blind faith? That is saying, you should believe in my god without any logic or evidence for the sake of believing it.

And if you ask too much question it is not healthy... so just go ahead and take my word that this is real.

One thing that attracted me to Buddhism is the logic which can explain many things that are not based on blind faith... but if being a follower of Buddhism is nothing more than more blind faith... than what is the point?
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Re: kamma and social justice

Postby daverupa » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:35 am

sanblvd wrote:what is the difference between that and blind faith?


Don't have blind faith, that's no good at all.

But are these questions about long permutations of kamma into the futures of others really central to a practice here and now?

When it comes to how to treat others, for example, we can find a passage such as SN 47.19 and test such a thing out for ourselves to see where it leads - and this doesn't necessitate a finely-tuned conceptual grasp of the intricacies of kamma.

I'm not trying for a cop-out; it may be worth my asking, What have you read about Buddhism thus far? How is your practice, if any? Let's come together with some common ground while we discuss this perplexing issue.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: kamma and social justice

Postby Yana » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:32 am

sanblvd wrote:
One thing that attracted me to Buddhism is the logic..


...yes ..and it's not logical to waste one's energy on matters that won't help you to be free from suffering.

Speculating on the exact workings of other people’s kamma results is not going to help you in your practice.

Partly because it’s a very complex process.Kamma does not see an action through our eyes.Or from our limited point of view.It takes into consideration EVERYTHING..meaning huge piece that we are not seeing.So trying to speculate on this matter is like to trying solve a jigsaw puzzle without having all the pieces.You kinda get the picture but that's about it.

The Buddha already gave you the necessary knowledge.If you do good you’ll be met with good,if you do bad you’ll be met with bad.You don’t have to concern yourself with exactly,how,when or why because that is subject to a million other conditions that can alter it.

:anjali:
Life is preparing for Death
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Re: kamma and social justice

Postby sanblvd » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:26 pm

I see what you guys trying to do... the only goal is here achieve enlightenment... and anything else should be discouraged... ok then, so much for being curious.

I guess I'll try find the answer somewhere else who is actually not arrogant enough to tell me to mind my own business.
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