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views without a thinker - Dhamma Wheel

views without a thinker

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
befriend
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views without a thinker

Postby befriend » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:00 pm

there is no self, so there is nothing to call me or mine, not sight no feeling no thought, none of those things belong to us there is no thinker. but what about when we stub our toe and there is pain is there self then?
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

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ground
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby ground » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:20 pm


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cbonanno
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby cbonanno » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:07 pm


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SDC
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:31 pm


SarathW
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:36 am

Hi Befriend
Pain exists but not permenanent. You can avoid it.
Please weare a steel cap shoe next time. :)

In the Visuddhi Magga it is therefore said:

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found.
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there,
Nirvana is, but not the man that enters it.
The path is, but no traveller on it is seen.

Please see the attahed link for more details.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el202.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby pegembara » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:44 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SamKR
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby SamKR » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:18 am


SarathW
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby SarathW » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:45 am

Hi SamKR
if pain exist, is in it wrong to say that "pain is not mine" or "pain is mine" instead of seen pain as a impermanance process? Please also consider when I am in pain, only I sufer not you!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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nrose619
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby nrose619 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:17 am

The Buddha taught that a human is made up of the Five Aggregates, but this does not mean there is a "self". The "self" is a term given as a form of expression and in a way to solidify the ego which is an illusion as well. Just because there is no "self" that does not mean there is no existence. You are still comprised of matter and mental formations but the term "self" is merely an illusion because there is no essence found in man, simliar to if you break down a chair you will not find a chair essence. A complete chair with a seat,back, and legs is called "chair" and is considered a singular object rather than a compilation of legs, backing, and a seat. Similarly because we view ourselves in a singular manner we think the "self" exists when in actuality you won't find a "self" in feelings, mental formations, or anything for that matter. That is why in Buddhism we do not believe in a permanent soul or essence of man.
"A silver bird
flies over the autumn lake.
When it has passed,
the lake's surface does not try
to hold on to the image of the bird."

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manas
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby manas » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:35 am

How we grasp the doctrine relating to the khandas makes all the difference, ime. So many Buddhists seem to get fixated on the idea ' I have no self', but THAT statement is dismissed as wrong view, because (as I understand it) it is still a particular view of self.

If we put aside the notion of 'do I have a self' or 'do I have no self' (existent vs non existence) and instead, focus on cause and effect, that is better. 'Who feels' is the wrong question. We should rather ask, 'with what as a supporting condition, can feeling arise?' And the answer is, 'contact'.
Last edited by manas on Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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ground
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby ground » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:44 am


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nrose619
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby nrose619 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:49 am

"A silver bird
flies over the autumn lake.
When it has passed,
the lake's surface does not try
to hold on to the image of the bird."

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manas
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby manas » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:14 am

Last edited by manas on Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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nrose619
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby nrose619 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:25 am

"The trouble is that how it is presented and defined - even calling it 'the non self doctrine', an expression I've not found in any of the suttas - seems to affect how people grasp it. I can't put any links up with this dratted 'smart phone' but if you look, Thanissaro Bhikkhu has written about this issue..."

In what way would you present and define it? why should it matter what it is called as long as it does not alter the concept of the teaching? Quite frankly, I believe being concerned over the exactness of the name is more of a problem than the issue at hand, it seems there is more conceptualizing than practice taking part. For if the doctrine is put fully into practice it will be easier to understand in both concept and experience.
"A silver bird
flies over the autumn lake.
When it has passed,
the lake's surface does not try
to hold on to the image of the bird."

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manas
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby manas » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:32 am

Hi nrose

if you google 'no self or not self', and also, 'the not self strategy' (both by T.B.) and read them, that would explain it better. I'm limited as I'm posting from a phone here.

Edit: I hope my previous post did not come across as criticizing, it was not intended in that way.
:anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

SamKR
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby SamKR » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:02 am


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manas
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby manas » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:47 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The above sutta might be helpful regarding this topic

(I just figured out how to copy and paste links with this phone :jumping: )

Metta
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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nrose619
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby nrose619 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:52 pm

"A silver bird
flies over the autumn lake.
When it has passed,
the lake's surface does not try
to hold on to the image of the bird."

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manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: views without a thinker

Postby manas » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:42 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

SarathW
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Re: views without a thinker

Postby SarathW » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:21 pm

Hi everyone
If mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found, then why Buddha asked us to extend loving kindness towards the sufferer?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”


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