Apathy

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Apathy

Postby sentientbeing » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:07 am

Is apathy the natural result of the cessation of craving?

I read somewhere that once the Arahant achieves enlightenment, the only mental formations that arise are products from previous volitional acts or caused by biological necessity, no "spontaneous" volitional acts are formed.

Is this the final extermination of the experience of free-will?
Can the Arahant be functional in modern society outside of the monestary?
Is it possible to set artificial goals and attain them in such a state?
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Re: Apathy

Postby ground » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:19 am

sentientbeing wrote:I read somewhere that once the Arahant achieves enlightenment, the only mental formations that arise are products from previous volitional acts or caused by biological necessity, no "spontaneous" volitional acts are formed.

"No volitional acts" does not necessarily mean that he is not acting from the perspective of another observer.

sentientbeing wrote:Is this the final extermination of the experience of free-will?

All kinds of ideas may be projected onto one's idea of an arahant. Best to refer to the 10 fetters eradicated.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: Apathy

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:30 am

ground wrote:
sentientbeing wrote:I read somewhere that once the Arahant achieves enlightenment, the only mental formations that arise are products from previous volitional acts or caused by biological necessity, no "spontaneous" volitional acts are formed.

"No volitional acts" does not necessarily mean that he is not acting from the perspective of another observer.

sentientbeing wrote:Is this the final extermination of the experience of free-will?

All kinds of ideas may be projected onto one's idea of an arahant. Best to refer to the 10 fetters eradicated.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:sage:

seconded.
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Apathy

Postby sentientbeing » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:47 am

ground wrote:"No volitional acts" does not necessarily mean that he is not acting from the perspective of another observer.


I am experiencing a mind state I can only describe as Anatta. There is no entity that "wills" except for the interplay of desires.

ground wrote:All kinds of ideas may be projected onto one's idea of an arahant. Best to refer to the 10 fetters eradicated.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Yes. I don't experience any of those except for deep uncertainty. I have not read many texts and I am wondering if anyone can offer insight into the nature of volition after the Arahat has acheived liberation.
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Re: Apathy

Postby ground » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:32 am

sentientbeing wrote:I am experiencing a mind state I can only describe as Anatta. ...
Yes. I don't experience any of those except for deep uncertainty. ...

If "deep uncertainty" indicates a sense of lack then it may be investigated how this conforms to what is called "a mind state I can only describe as Anatta". But it is really nothing that can be discussed ... :sage:
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Re: Apathy

Postby sentientbeing » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:49 am

ground wrote:If "deep uncertainty" indicates a sense of lack then it may be investigated how this conforms to what is called "a mind state I can only describe as Anatta". But it is really nothing that can be discussed ... :sage:


I don't know if there is a misunderstanding here. The best description I have found outside of Depersonalization Disorder is the Buddhist notion of Anatta. The deep uncertainty is more of an intellectual confusion than a "restlessness". I am curious as to any reports (you've heard/read) on the experience of the arahant.
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Re: Apathy

Postby ground » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:05 am

sentientbeing wrote:The best description I have found outside of Depersonalization Disorder is the Buddhist notion of Anatta.

However "Depersonalization Disorder" seems to conicide with a felt self (atta) ...
First experiences with depersonalization may be frightening, with patients fearing loss of control, dissociation from the rest of society and functional impairment. [15] The majority of patients suffering from depersonalization disorder misinterpret the symptoms, thinking that they are signs of serious mental illness or brain dysfunction. This commonly leads to an increase of anxiety experienced by the patient which contributes to the worsening of symptoms. [16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder


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Re: Apathy

Postby sentientbeing » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:24 am

I am merely describing my experience. I feel that words and definitions do not get at the core.


It is apparently a known occurence among meditators:
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Re: Apathy

Postby cbonanno » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:57 am

sentientbeing wrote:Is apathy the natural result of the cessation of craving?


No. Getting rid of craving lets you act in a liberated way instead of being blindly controlled by your conditioning. Apathy would be constantly lacking compassion. And remember, the goal is not to get rid of craving, it is to end your suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.24.budd.html
Beset by craving, people run about like an entrapped hare. Held fast by mental fetters, they come to suffering again and again for a long time.


sentientbeing wrote:I read somewhere that once the Arahant achieves enlightenment, the only mental formations that arise are products from previous volitional acts or caused by biological necessity, no "spontaneous" volitional acts are formed.

Your word choice is revealing. An Arahant does not acheive enlightenment, an Arahant is enlightened.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.025.wlsh.html

As for the rest, how do you define a biological necessity? Would compassion fall under that category? If you can cite your "I read somewhere" source it might help.

sentientbeing wrote:Is this the final extermination of the experience of free-will?
Can the Arahant be functional in modern society outside of the monestary?
Is it possible to set artificial goals and attain them in such a state?

These last three question have no need/use to be answered.
Last edited by cbonanno on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apathy

Postby cbonanno » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:12 pm

sentientbeing wrote:I am merely describing my experience. I feel that words and definitions do not get at the core.

It is apparently a known occurence among meditators:


This gentleman is not a Buddhist, he is a businessman.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/shinzen.htm

Why listen to these people when you can listen to the Buddha?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org
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Re: Apathy

Postby James the Giant » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:16 pm

cbonanno wrote:This gentleman is not a Buddhist, he is a businessman.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/shinzen.htm


He's a Buddhist AND a businessman. I'd be pretty careful about saying someone isn't a buddhist.
Also, linking to greatwesternvehicle.org to back up your argument is kinda hilarious. That's not a site worth linking to.

Shinzen Young's video is quite good in that it distinguishes Depersonalisation Disorder from the experience of Anatta, and he points out how they are similar but very different.
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saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
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Re: Apathy

Postby ground » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:35 pm

sentientbeing wrote:I am merely describing my experience. I feel that words and definitions do not get at the core.

Yes and certainly psychiatric diagnosis on the one hand and "spiritual state" or "achievement" {further terms may be added} on the other hand are culturally conditioned ideas. E.g. It has been suggested that the shakyamuni may have had Asperger Syndrome.

Maybe to differentiate for oneself it may be helpful whether a state causes suffering for oneself .... taking suffering for others as an indicator may be misleading at times since many others tend to suffer if one does not behave the way they expect (which usually is according to culturally conditioned social norms). :sage:
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Re: Apathy

Postby cbonanno » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:45 pm

James the Giant wrote:
cbonanno wrote:This gentleman is not a Buddhist, he is a businessman.
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/shinzen.htm


He's a Buddhist AND a businessman. I'd be pretty careful about saying someone isn't a buddhist.
Also, linking to greatwesternvehicle.org to back up your argument is kinda hilarious. That's not a site worth linking to.

Shinzen Young's video is quite good in that it distinguishes Depersonalisation Disorder from the experience of Anatta, and he points out how they are similar but very different.


But his video is bad in that he thinks the conditions can arise from proper meditation. Maybe it arises in his students because he is a poor instructor. Maybe if he taught all of what the Buddha taught, and not just vipassanna, he would not have to discuss this idea.

I am careful who I call a Buddhist. He is not Buddhist because he does not teach the full complexity of what the Buddha taught. Listen to more of his videos and go to his website. He is a business man who uses some cherry picked buddhist ideas to make people feel good and to satisfy his monetary fetters.

He says on his website:
Removed from its cultural and doctrinal trappings, vipassana meditation (usually under the name mindfulness) is finding clinical application in the fields of pain management, stress management, compulsions and as an adjunct to psychotherapy.

The Buddha did not teach meditation for these reasons, he taught it as a way to reach Nibanna, any other goal is not Buddhism.

The Buddha had something to say about people like him:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html
Good Gotama, as for those persons who, in want of a way of living, having gone forth from home into homelessness without faith, who are crafty, fraudulent, deceitful, who are unbalanced and puffed up, who are shifty, scurrilous and of loose talk, the doors of whose sense-organs are not guarded, who do not know moderation in eating, who are not intent on vigilance, indifferent to recluseship, not of keen respect for the training, who are ones for abundance, lax, taking the lead in backsliding, shirking the burden of seclusion, who are indolent, of feeble energy, of confused mindfulness, not clearly conscious, not concentrated but of wandering minds, who are weak in wisdom, drivelers — the good Gotama is not in communion with them.


Regarding to linking to greatwesternvehicle.org: While I do not agree with most of what Mr. Brooks writes about, the facts of that specific article, are they in dispute?
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