The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

tiltbillings wrote:
In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.
Intellectual understanding has an important role to play, but if one does not actually do what is necessary to actually see “reality,” as the Buddha taught, all the intellectual “right understanding” is of limited value. Hoping for something to arise because we have amassed an intellectual understanding might work to some degree, but it is not what the Buddha taught. He taught much more based upon our ability to choose, to act, to deliberately cultivate those factors that give rise to insight/vipassana.
Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.

Brgds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: So when you said "I would not be able to assert to myself that her views are right if there had not been enough consideration from my own part." So that consideration was "Yoniso manasikara" and that "Yoniso manasikara" happened because the right conditions were there? It was not an activity? Amd the "consideration" was not touched or tainted?
Naturally it is not an activity. Manasikara is a cetasika which arises with all citta, it is usually translated as attention, consideration...It is yoniso manasikara when it accompanies kusala citta, and in the case of vipassana bhavana, it is accompanied by panna. Because it is yoniso, it is free from taints, at the moment it arises. If i try deliberately, however, to "considerate", it might be ayoniso manasikara, for sure.

Brgds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Polar Bear »

dhamma follower wrote:



I don't think the Buddha taught free will. He taught that will is a conditioned dhamma.

Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:
Fatalism: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine.

In other words, if one accepts that the choices we are going to make are already determined by prior causes and conditions and that the entire universe is already determined by prior causes and conditions to unfold in a specific way then whoever is going to become an arahant is going to become one though no will of their own. It is simply the universe rolling on.

Personally, I think the buddha would have avoided these sorts of discussions though and just told us to cultivate the path, cultivate the wholesome, cultivate the seven factors of awakening, the first one being sati. Sati is something that is to be cultivated through practice, it cannot arise without the desire and intention to do so. Scientific study of meditation has proven that intentional formal practice does actually improve the mind so regardless of what anyone says, intentional formal meditation helps and I hope that every person interested in following the Dhamma will realize that.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

kirk5a wrote:
Where, in the following, do you see the requirement, the precondition, for "right understanding of reality"? Where do you see the suggestion "we can not actively make it arise"?
"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

[1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'
[/quote]

Hi Kirk,

We should not expect the Buddha explain every details in the same sutta. The conditions for right understanding are mentioned in other suttas as quoted by RobertK here and I might provide some later.

Btw, the satipatthana sutta includes both description of samatha bhavana and vipassana. Each kind of development has its own conditions.

Brgds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Alex123 wrote:Hello DF,
dhamma follower wrote: i don't have a choice over my views. They are conditioned, as any other sankhara dhamma. It was different 10 years ago. It was different 10 months and 10 days ago. Never really the same. It changes as considering over dhammas occurs again and again, by conditions.
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "All things are anatta"? Of course you can do it right now. This is right view.
Or
Can you at this moment, please do it, think "Atta really exists. I wonder what it is..."? Of course you can do it right now. This is wrong view.
Hi Alex,

Understanding is not repeating words. I can of course say now "All things are anatta" as you resquested without really understanding what that means. Right view is right understanding. I could now say this to a friend nearby, he might or might not understand it at all, depending on his accumulations.

brgds,
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SamKR
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by SamKR »

"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?
Last edited by SamKR on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

Hi dhamma follower
So you are saying that there has been yoniso manasikara (consideration that is free from taints) when you have come into contact with Khun Sujin's views? There is no doubt? How are you sure?

When you meet Khun Sujin do you listen?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Spiny Norman »

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?
Right Effort is a factor of the 8-fold path, so it's looks as if intentional effort is an important aspect of practice - at least in creating the right conditions for panna to arise.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Mr Man wrote:Hi dhamma follower
So you are saying that there has been yoniso manasikara (consideration that is free from taints) when you have come into contact with Khun Sujin's views? There is no doubt? How are you sure?

When you meet Khun Sujin do you listen?
You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong. Well, of course it might be. But until now, I don't see that this understanding goes against the Buddha's teaching. Doubt will only be completely removed by sotapana magga citta, which I don't claim to have. The dhammas are so intricate and we know so little, so there is doubt about this and that characteristics of dhammas, it comes along with non-understanding, which arise more, much more often than moments of understanding.

Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

SamKR wrote:"'No intentional effort can cause wisdom to arise': That seems to be one extreme. "'Only intentional effort can cause wisdom': That seems to be a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, perhaps the Tathagata taught the Dhamma via the middle?
Dear Sam,

Intention arises with all cittas, so intentional and non-intentional effort don't make sense at all. Effort arises with 73 (if I'm not mistaken) out of 89, so with most cittas. It can be accompanied by either akusala or kusala cetasika. When it arises with akusala citta, it is wrong effort. The right effort of the 8NP arises with kusala citta with understanding. So it is the understanding which is the leading factor. With right understanding, there's right effort. The middle Path is also the 8NP. There's no one who practices, it is panna cetasika, together with other wholesome citta which cultivate the Path.

You might have heard about the word "samvega", which means sense of urgency. When panna understands, it gives rise to samvega, which condition ever more moments of sati-sampajana leading to the culmination of the Path. It is an empty process.

Brgds,
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

dhamma follower wrote: You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong.
I would think it would be wise to be open that possibility. Being right can be a bit of a burden.
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
dhamma follower wrote: You are suggesting that what I have understood might be wrong.
I would think it would be wise to be open that possibility. Being right can be a bit of a burden.
dhamma follower wrote:Yes, I listen to AS when I meet her, ask question too and discuss with her and others. Why?
That is called an activity. Unfortunately that activity may be touched with Silabbataparamasa :(
Especially when there is the assumption that the "listening"will set up the conditions for the arising of wisdom; otherwise, why do it?

What is interesting is the denial of purposeful action by the Sujin followers, but it seems that one of the real problems with the Sujin method, as we see it portrayed here, is that the language used denies any actual moral responsibility.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:Fatalism means no way out. But the Buddha taught the 8 Noble fold Path which leads out of samsara. However, there's no traveler of the Path, like in the Dhammapada:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nirvana is, but not the person who enters it;

The path is, but no traveler thereon is seen."
This not from the Dhammapada, and I wonder if you actually know what is being said here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
In my understanding, it is rather understanding which arises and approach a reality with sati, which is called sati- sampajana. Without the element of right understanding of reality, it is not sati of satipatthana, and we can not actively make it to arise and maintain it. Understanding of its conditions, however, is a factor that can condition it to arise.
Intellectual understanding has an important role to play, but if one does not actually do what is necessary to actually see “reality,” as the Buddha taught, all the intellectual “right understanding” is of limited value. Hoping for something to arise because we have amassed an intellectual understanding might work to some degree, but it is not what the Buddha taught. He taught much more based upon our ability to choose, to act, to deliberately cultivate those factors that give rise to insight/vipassana.
Intellectual understanding, or rather yoniso manasikara conditions direct understanding. It 's what the Buddha taught in a sutta (I have to find it again but I don't have it now): yoniso manasikara is the food for satipatthana. Having intellectual is not as easy as one thinks, however. We are now not agreeing on our understanding of the texts, or on this forum, people disagree on so many things..., that's an example.
Intellectual understanding equals yoniso-manasikāra?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
beeblebrox
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by beeblebrox »

dhamma follower wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:It would be more useful to share these experiences and views, rather than trying to prove that one view is better than another
I sincerely don't see how to share my views that I believe to be true (what I think I am doing) and not to show that it is closer to what is taught by the Buddha than another view which is different from mine?
Dear Dhamma Follower,

Sorry I've been away for a while.

I think it is exactly that, where we can see the dukkha... its arising, and the cessation. Many people don't seem to realize this. It's very easily noticed when there is mindfulness.

It is a skill. It's easier to develop when the setting is controlled (in a conventional sense)... such as in a sitting meditation, walking meditation, or listening to a Dharma talk.

How would that kind of environment become possible, where the conditions are arranged in a certain way where things end up more or less controlled? It's thanks to the Triple Jewel. The Buddha had the wisdom. He shared it via the Dhamma, and the Sangha carried it.

That is why it's possible for us to do these different kinds of practices, in a way which will enrich our own lives, and others.

Take advantage of that, please... our lives are very short. Don't waste your time on such frivolous things as whether there's a self that does things, or not. This encounter with the Dhamma is very rare.

I don't buy this logic of not doing the practice of mindfulness, if there was no wisdom.

If that was the case, then I don't think that we should even be talking right now, if we had no wisdom... especially not by trying to assert our own viewpoints of what the Dhamma is... because then this won't be the right speech. That would be disastrous.

I also don't think we should even listen to a Dhamma talk, if we had no proper attention... because that is the only way that the wisdom will even arise... Robert K. shared that in the very beginning of this thread. I think that to try to do it otherwise would be a complete waste of time... according to the logic in here.

So, please do your practice... whatever that might be.

:anjali:
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