The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: It is then for us to look to ourselves to see if we're cultivating wisdom or not, by giving rise to the appropriate causes for the arising of wisdom.
Of course. And that's what we are all doing (or should be). It's an essential part of practice, and something all good teachers will encourage.

:anjali:
Mike
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

dhamma follower wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:as i said earlier in this thread:
Firstly let us be upfront and honest and admit, especially to ourselves, that delusion and conceit are almost omnipresent. Then we can take a breath and see that this Dhamma is so profound that is probable that if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted.
This is a paradox. The result, in my opinion, binds one to ever being bound. It negates the possibility of insight here and now. The ideas that are created are regressive.
Dear Mr Man,

I don't think the truth binds. It is craving and ignorance that do. Don't they?

In order to realize that unwholesome dhammas are more present than wholesome, certain understanding of what is wholesome and unwholesome is required, as well as a close examination of our mental states, which is one of the things that the Buddha recommended us to know. It is not a matter of thinking I am good or bad, but to attend the dhammas as they appear with some understanding, and honesty should tell us that unwholesomeness does abound.

Brgds,

D.F
Hi dhamma follower
Obviously I am not sugesting that truth binds (what are the qualaties of truth?). And no doubt it is wise to be circumspect but to quote robertk "if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted." is just another leval of judgement which has been conditiomed. It is more of the same. A viewpoint has been adopted.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodh
"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

It msy happen that from right study and development we find that what we had once thought were orr strenghts turn out to be faults:our confident nature is mostly mana(conceit). The calmness we cherish only clinging to quiet; our directness mostly aversion. Also it sometimes happens that the teachers we first thought so wise turn out to be stuck in some place or another

. In the Intro. to the Vibhanga(Abhidhamma pitaka) (Pali text society)iggelden writes

"
It is all very well to say 'I know what is right and what is wrongThe fact is very few people do know when it comes to the precison of mental behaviour essential to correct development toward release. It is this exactitude of behaviour;mental physical and the conseqeunces thereof, that the scriptures elucidate in detail
"
.Iggelden carries on "It is all very well to say 'I know what needs to be done to break the continuity of rebirth and death'. In fact very few people know of even the most elementary reasons for the continuity of process, let alone of breaking it. It is the detailed description, analysis and reasons given for this cyclic process that the scriptures spend so much care in putting before us. It is all very well to say 'What do I want to know all thesedefinitions of terms for, it only clutters the mind?'The question is, though, how many people when
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Mr man: robertk "if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted." is just another leval of judgement which has been conditiomed. It is more of the same. A viewpoint has been adopted.Mr Man
Hi mr man
I think retro cited this sutta recently
Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara NikâyaTranslated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi
Few Are Those Beings
Those who understand the meaning and the Dhamma and who practice in accordance to theDhamma are few, while those who fail to do so are many.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Right View is, until one become arahanta, a work in progres
even a sotapanna has completed the eradication of wrong view. And the one on the path to sotapanna is attentuating wrong view more and more.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:
The point I have taken out of this conversation is that "sitting on your bum" is not taught by the Buddha as a cause for the arising of wisdom.
It is what one does and does not do when one is "sitting on one's bum" that matters.
The cause of wisdom most frequently provided in the suttas appears to be the listening to, and reflecting upon the Dhamma. Then with that wisdom, meditation (i.e. right mindfulness, right concentration) is used as a means of non-appropriation and release.
Interesting, but I have yet to see anything in this thread that convincingly makes this bifurcation. While one can have a carefully structured conceptual knowledge of the Dhamma, garnered from careful reading and reflection, which is of value in making for a context for one's practice, it is in the doing that the Dhamma come alive. "Non-appropriation and release” comes with insight, seeing the conditioned co-produced rise and fall of the all..

The commonly propagated assumption that the wisdom itself comes from the doing of "meditation" is what I don't recall being substantiated once throughout this topic, but it is now 37 pages long and I do not have photographic memory so apologize if I've missed something pertinent that demonstrates that the Buddha taught this.
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:
  • "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10
It is with the doing, the sila, the bhavana, and the putting into practice the rest of the Eightfold Path, as we interact with others and as we confront the totality – the all -- of what we are that Dhamma is brought to transformative life.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:ECommentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodh

i"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon.
This neatly supports my statements here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 68#p242968 Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
Right View is, until one become arahanta, a work in progres
even a sotapanna has completed the eradication of wrong view. And the one on the path to sotapanna is attentuating wrong view more and more.
I stand corrected. I had meant to write ariya, and with that correction, my point still stands.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
Those who understand the meaning and the Dhamma and who practice in accordance to theDhamma are few, while those who fail to do so are many.
Study and practice -- doing: sila, bhavana and the rest of the Eightfold Path. Again, thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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tilt:
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

if i remember that sutta correctly, bahiya didn't upon listening then take any particular posture, or walk faster or slower,?
doesn't it show that insight was a matter of listening to the Dhamma and applying it there and then-as in seeing the nature of reality there and then, even while listening. Thus insight is a matter of understanding of seeing , it is a mental phenomena.
the commentary says that Bahiya became an arahat by the end of that sermon.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:tilt:
While the conceptual structure makes a context for the doing, it is the doing that truth of what the conceptual structures point to is realized. The conceptual structure serve no other purpose than supporting the doing. And this is seen most clearly in this most concise and profound expression of the Dhamma:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." – Ud 10

if i remember that sutta correctly, bahiya didn't upon listening then take any particular posture, or walk faster or slower,?
doesn't it show that insight was a matter of listening to the Dhamma and applying it there and then-as in seeing the nature of reality there and then, even while listening. Thus insight is a matter of understanding of seeing , it is a mental phenomena.
the commentary says that Bahiya became an arahat by the end of that sermon.
And the commentary also says that Bahiya was a highly experience meditator, which is what makes these instruction for him as potent as they are. He has done much of the ground already. Also, the thing is, these instructions are not just for Bahiya, which is why we have them and several other suttas that give essentially the same instructions for practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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in the full sutta the deva who urged Bahiya to seek out the Buddha said to him that
Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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robertk wrote:in the full sutta the deva who urged Bahiya to seek out the Buddha said to him that
Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship."
So? And you have appealed to the commentary. Does not the commentary state that Bahiya was a skilled meditator? Had he not already laid down the ground work by his practice? Bahiya would not have attained awakening by merely hearing the instructions without the ground work in place, unless you are arguing that causes and conditions do not matter. And also we have, as I said, a number other suttas that give essentially the same instructions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

actually the Commentary gives the attainment of jhanas as one of the possible things that Bahiya might have attained , but doesc not state that he had definitely attained them.
it also says that he
had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the
Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious
deeds. He had later gone forth’ under Buddha Kassapa .
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/24977
Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people
after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from
bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as
one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was
completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him
respect. It took a visit by Grat Brahma, a former deva companion and an
anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses.
Great Brahma tells him: “You now, though being no arahant, roam about
wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant.
You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views
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