Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

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SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:48 am

Hi Reflection
I see where you comming from and I agree with you.
How ever, I do not have answers to questions such as:

A) sabbe dhamma anatta: Does it mean that nirvana is there as same as Sankara?
B) "In this very one-fathom long body along with perceptions and thoughts, do I proclaim the world, the origin of the world, the end of the world and the path leading to the end of the world." Here the term world is applied to suffering.
Does it mean that Nirvana can be experience right now in this body?
C) that space is not, but Nibbāna is.
See the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16160

D) Why Nibbana is classified as Nama in Abhidhamma?
See the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16220


For the time being I have decided to be open minded and keep this question in mind as unresolved!

Mean-while :) :meditate:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Buckwheat
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Buckwheat » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:57 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby SarathW » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:52 pm

Hi Buckwhet,
Yes that’s correct.
What I meant was whether Nirvana also exist the same way as five aggregate. So what I am saying is Non-Existence is exist. On the other hand we can’t say whether Nirvana exist or not exist.
Sorry to confuse you. :juggling:

You better off reading P385 of: :)
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf

“So,though indeed Existence is, Non-Existence should be sought”
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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manas
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby manas » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:54 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:53 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby SarathW » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:59 am

Sorry guys. May be I quote some thing out of contex.
By the way I am so glad that there are lot of Chekers in this forum. It comforts me. :)

I got it from:
P385 of:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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equilibrium
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses?

Postby equilibrium » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:09 pm


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Benjamin
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses?

Postby Benjamin » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:35 pm

"Don't believe everything you read."
-The Buddha

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Benjamin
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Benjamin » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:43 pm

NOTE: This is a better recording of Thanissaro's opinion on this matter.



At one hour and 30 minutes in (1:30:00), you will find viññanam anidassanam brought up. Listen until at least 1:40:00.

Thanissaro specifically says that viññanam anidassanam is the consciousness of nibbana.

I don't mention this to try and frame Ven. Thanissaro in a bad light. This is simply a much better recording than the one I used to start this thread, for this whole talk is much more conversational in tone and he makes his views quite easily known.

After he says it he does admit that it's controversial, it seems as if he almost hesitated to bring it up.


Metta,
Benjamin
"Don't believe everything you read."
-The Buddha

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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby polarbear101 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:35 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Benjamin
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Benjamin » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:15 pm

In the talk I just posted (at 1:49:00), his opinion on why it's discussed so rarely in the canon (once or twice only I believe) is because it can't be discussed adequately and trying to describe it won't be helpful to the path (. More of a technical reference than anything. It's only purpose (in Thanissaro's words) is to let us know that we aren't committing "spiritual suicide".


Thanks
"Don't believe everything you read."
-The Buddha

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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby IanAnd » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:23 am

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Benjamin
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Benjamin » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:12 am

"Don't believe everything you read."
-The Buddha

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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Coyote » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:55 pm

Just read Nyanaponika Thera's essay "Anatta and Nibbana - Egolessness and Deliverance" found in "Pathways of Buddhist Thought, Essays from The Wheel" selected by M. O'C. Walshe, although no doubt available elsewhere.
It's very good and quite pertinent to this discussion. In the end he states that positivist and negativist descriptions of Nibbana can be found in the canon and both have their place in discouraging the extremes of Annihilation and Eternalism, but they each need the qualification of the other to do so properly.

:anjali:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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Benjamin
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby Benjamin » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:58 pm

"Don't believe everything you read."
-The Buddha

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beeblebrox
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses?

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:09 pm


SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses?

Postby SarathW » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:09 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Awakening
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses?

Postby Awakening » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:35 pm


SarathW
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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby SarathW » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:21 am

I just notice, Ven. Thanissaro writing about the matter as shown in the OP.
================
A few texts [§§235-36] discuss a separate type of consciousness that does not partake of any of the six senses or their objects. This type of consciousness is said to lie beyond the range of describable experience and so is not included under the five aggregates. In fact, it is equivalent to the Unfabricated and forms the goal at the end of the path.
H (ii). Discernment: The First Truth
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part3.html


=========================
However he sees the drawback and the pitfall of above view and make a qualification for his statement by making a note in another link
========================


Notes
1.
Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "objectify non-objectification," which gets in the way of attaining the non-objectified. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Awareness independent of the 6 senses? (Thanissaro)

Postby pegembara » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:19 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.


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