Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

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Coyote
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Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by Coyote »

If Kamma is Cetana, why does an Arahant's Cetana not produce kamma-vipaka? Does it have something to do with the lack of ignorance in the Cetana?
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ground
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by ground »

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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fivebells
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by fivebells »

ground, I don't think that really answers Coyote's question. Another way to phrase the question in terms of that sutta is, What's different about an arahant's intention, given that there is no production of renewed becoming? How do you eat, talk or travel about without intention? Does being an arahant mean disidentifying from the intentions and becomings which seem, from a conventional point of view, to be necessary to these activities?
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by santa100 »

Coyote wrote:If Kamma is Cetana, why does an Arahant's Cetana not produce kamma-vipaka? Does it have something to do with the lack of ignorance in the Cetana?
That's true. Since ignorance has been abandoned, the self views of "I", "mine", "myself" also cease. So if there's no "self" who intends, kamma no longer be constructed upon that "self". For example, a worlding who intends to give food to a hungry beggar will receives good kamma in the future since s/he still sees a "self" who's giving something to the other. The arahant spontaneously gives without any "self" involved. Thus no future kamma..
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male_robin
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by male_robin »

Coyote wrote:If Kamma is Cetana, why does an Arahant's Cetana not produce kamma-vipaka? Does it have something to do with the lack of ignorance in the Cetana?
I think, yes, the lack of kilesas; of afflicted motivation.

That is from AN 6.63 Nibbedhika Sutta

The passage in transliterated Pali:

Cetanāhaṃ, bhikkhave, kammaṃ vadāmi. Cetayitvā kammaṃ karoti: kāyena, vācāya, manasā.

The next passage seems to be saying that kamma originates from contact.

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammānaṃ nidāna-sambhavo? Phasso, bhikkhave, kammānaṃ nidāna-sambhavo.

The section goes on to explain that kamma is experienced in the 5 realms of living beings. Next, that the fruit of kamma can arise immediately, later in life, or the next life. After that is explains that cessation (nirodha) of kamma is from the cessation of contact via the noble eight branched path. It then talks about understanding all that in terms of discerning the penetrative holy life.

Prior to that, the Sutta talks about the cessation of sensual lust, feelings (vedana), sanna, and asavas in the same way. After kamma, it discusses the cessation of dukkha in the same. The focus seems to be on cessation of phassa (contact) via the 8-fold path, which leads to or is followed by the penetrative holy life. Cessation (nirodha) of contact leads to nirodha of lust, feelings / sensations, conceptions / perceptions, inflows / outflows, kamma, and dukkha,

A key here might be understanding what is nirodha. I do not think it means total cessation, but rather the cessation or restraint of the three root kilesas. I think there is still contact between the 6 bases and their objects. However, sensual lust does not arise. There are still the three kinds of vedana and sanna. However, things are seen as they are without attachment or revulsion, so there are no inflows / outflows, no kamma generated, and no being overwhelmed by dukkha.

From what I i just looked at, निरोध nirodha can mean restraint, control, prevention ...
नि ni- orनिर् nir- can mean down, below, into, or out?
रोध rodha can mean growing, sprouting. Also impeding or blocking?

This is all tentative.
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by cooran »

Hello all

This previous thread may be of interest:

Arahants and kamma
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=232

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Chris
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by Zakattack »

ground wrote:
"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
ground, I don't think that really answers Coyote's question. an arahant must intend. intention was included by Buddha as one of the four nutriments & thus necessities of life. here, Buddha appeared to explain good intention & bad intention (two strong men) drag a person to the vipaka (result) of a pit of fire. here, Buddha agreed with the saying: 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. but Right Intention (Samma Sankappa), the 2nd Path Factor, does not lead to the pit of fire. also, being completely cleansed from the three kinds of craving & particularly self-view certainly helps in the occurring of no vipaka (resultant suffering).

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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Actually, I think ground's response does answer the question.

Or to put it another way, an arahant neither generates nor sustains any sankharas (including kamma) founded in avijja.
Coyote wrote:If Kamma is Cetana, why does an Arahant's Cetana not produce kamma-vipaka? Does it have something to do with the lack of ignorance in the Cetana?
So yes... think of it in terms of paticcasamuppada (i.e. dependent arising of samsaric experience) if that helps.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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ground
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by ground »

fivebells wrote:ground, I don't think that really answers Coyote's question.
Zakattack wrote:ground, I don't think that really answers Coyote's question.
retrofuturist wrote:Actually, I think ground's response does answer the question.
I agree with retrofuturist.

The issue however is that the wording is "answer Coyote's question" while fivebells can only refer to his own doubt and Zakattack can only refer to his own doubt and retrofuturist can only refer to his own certainty and ground can only refer to his own certainty.

It is likely that Coyote's doubt ressembles the doubts of fivebells and Zakattack whatever the reason may be if it is so. :sage:
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by tiltbillings »

ground wrote:
fivebells wrote:ground, I don't think that really answers Coyote's question.
Zakattack wrote:ground, I don't think that really answers Coyote's question.
retrofuturist wrote:Actually, I think ground's response does answer the question.
I agree with retrofuturist.

The issue however is that the wording is "answer Coyote's question" while fivebells can only refer to his own doubt and Zakattack can only refer to his own doubt and retrofuturist can only refer to his own certainty and ground can only refer to his own certainty.

It is likely that Coyote's doubt ressembles the doubts of fivebells and Zakattack whatever the reason may be if it is so.
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by Gena1480 »

i think
Arahant has intention without passion (dispassion)
while the worldling has intention with passion
there is two types of aggregates
the clinging aggregates
the aggregates with delight and passion
and aggregates with out delight and passion
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by fivebells »

retrofuturist wrote:an arahant neither generates nor sustains any sankharas (including kamma) founded in avijja.
OK, but they do generate sankharas? How does this look, outside of the chain of DO? Is it like the conscious fabrication of jhana, just without attachment/clinging?
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
fivebells wrote:OK, but they do generate sankharas?
Not sankharas dependent upon avijja... hence,
fivebells wrote:How does this look, outside of the chain of DO?
Yes, outside of it. Paticcasamuppada has no revelance once its source is destroyed.

As for what is experienced, I'll defer and allow an arahant to respond to your question. It would not be proper for me to do so, as I am not.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by Zakattack »

retrofuturist wrote:Actually, I think ground's response does answer the question. Or to put it another way, an arahant neither generates nor sustains any sankharas (including kamma) founded in avijja.
Friend. There is appreciation (mudita) for your metta towards Ground. But the omission of crucial conditions of avijja (ignorance), craving (tanha) & sakkaya ditthi (self-view) are where Ground's reply falls short to some. The way it is, without doubt, is arahants produce taintless sankhara. To the novice, Ground's reply may give rise to the mistaken view an arahant's kamma ends due to non-thinking & non-doing (rather than due to the remainderless extinguishing of self-view).
And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

And at the Capala shrine the Blessed One thus mindfully and clearly comprehending renounced his will to live on. And upon the Lord's renouncing his will to live on, there came a tremendous earthquake, dreadful and astonishing, and thunder rolled across the heavens.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
When an arahant speaks, if they do not engage/produce vaci sankhara, how do they speak?
Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal sankhara.

MN 44

Bonds are gone for him without conceits,
All delusion's chains are cast aside:
Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.
That monk still might use such words as "I,"
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Well aware of common worldly speech,
He would speak conforming to such use.

SN 1.25 Araha.m Sutta: The Arahant
The above quote not only shows arahants produce/engage verbal sankhara but also are liberated from kamma vipaka due to an absence of conceit (aka self-view).

To borrow a phrase from the Tao Te Ching: "The true sage :sage: can talk all day without getting hoarse, so complete is his harmony".

As for the quote below, is shows arahants function as pure aggregates, including sankhara aggregate.
"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one (arahant), with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications (Sankhara)... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is unsatisfactory. That which is unsatisfactory has ceased and gone to its end."

"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Why does arahant's Cetana not produce kamma/vipaka?

Post by pegembara »

Without any idea of a self, there is no one doing the deed or receiving its consequences. The arahant has no such burden left.
There is the deed but no doer; there is suffering but no sufferer; there is the path no one to enter it; and there is liberation but no one to attain it.
Only the aggregates remain ie. nibbana with depersonalised aggregates.
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Inappropriate attention leads to thinking in terms of kamma-vipaka.
"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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