Suffering and cessation

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Suffering and cessation

Postby heraclito27 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:26 am

If I understand correctly, the end of suffering is dispassion and as a consequence cessation of all experiences.
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Re: Suffering and cessation

Postby pegembara » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:30 am

The end of suffering is the end of grasping to all that is experienced as me, mine and myself. The extinguishment of greed, hatred and delusion. Not cessation of all experiences.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the 1,000 monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Suffering and cessation

Postby reflection » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:09 am

"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; in the same way, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, everything that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Suffering and cessation

Postby heraclito27 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:30 pm

But pegembara, as @reflection cite It's passion the fuel that keep the beings in existence, without that fuel, existence extinguish, no more reborn.

The cause of dispassion is the end of ignorance of the three marks of existence:
-All experiences are impermanent.
-All experiences are suffering.
-All experiences are not-self.

If all experiences are impermanent, suffering and not-self, there is no reason to crave for more experiences, for more existence, this causes the cessation.

The teaching is very radical in the sense that is not possible to fix existence, you can't tweak this or that, become this or that and things are going to be ok. All form of existence is inherently marked with suffering, the only solution is the end of it.

Is my understanding correct?
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Re: Suffering and cessation

Postby obo » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:35 pm

Hello Heraclito,

You have this partly correctly and partly not.

On the one hand it is said: 'The end of bhava (existence, experience, being, living, becoming) is Nibbana'.

On the other hand Gotama defines bhava as being a product of the indivitual grounded in blindness acting with the intent to create personal experience for himself by way of thought, word and deed.

So what Gotama is saying is that all that is understood to be existence is personal existence.

This is not the way we are acustomed today to think of the idea of existence, but it is necessary to put one's self in this frame of mind to understand how it can be that the goal, Nibbana, can be a consciousness without identification, un-made, but not unconditioned.

Here you need to correct your translation of the three characteristics:

It is not all "experience" anything, it is:

All sankharas are transient
All sankharas are pain
All dhammas (things) are not-self.

The word 'sankhara' has been erroneously translated as 'conditioned' by virtually every translator to date, but this is an incorrect translation. The word means 'con-structed' or 'own-made'.

If you use the awkward translation 'own-made' you will see that what is being spoken of as this consciousness that is not identified with is conditioned, (paccaya), but not (sankharaed). It is conditioned by following the Magga, which results in the elimination of sankharaing, or the creation of a personal world, or what Gotama is referring to as 'experience'.
Best wishes!
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may all beings be well and happy
and my I act with friendliness towards all living beings
in whatsoever of the 10 directions they may abide,
may I be sympathetic to their pains and sorrows,
empathize with their situations
and be at all times objectively detached
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Re: Suffering and cessation

Postby pegembara » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:47 am

heraclito27 wrote:But pegembara, as @reflection cite It's passion the fuel that keep the beings in existence, without that fuel, existence extinguish, no more reborn.

The cause of dispassion is the end of ignorance of the three marks of existence:
-All experiences are impermanent.
-All experiences are suffering.
-All experiences are not-self. (All things -Sabbe dhamma - conditioned and unconditioned are not self.)

If all experiences are impermanent, suffering and not-self, there is no reason to crave for more experiences, for more existence, this causes the cessation.

The teaching is very radical in the sense that is not possible to fix existence, you can't tweak this or that, become this or that and things are going to be ok. All form of existence is inherently marked with suffering, the only solution is the end of it.

Is my understanding correct?


All form of existence is inherently marked with suffering -yes.
The only solution is the end of it -no. Otherwise suicide would be a solution. That would be going to the other extreme, not the Middle Path. The "solution" is to wake up from the dream of existence and to realise the Deathless. To not crave for more experiences to me would be non returning ie. the extinguishing of desire. That sense of I (conceit) is still there.

"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The way people think is that having been born, they don't want to die. Is that correct? It's like pouring water into a glass but not wanting it to fill up. If you keep pouring the water, you can't expect it not to be full. But people think like this: they are born but don't want to die. Is that correct thinking? Consider it. If people are born but never die, will that bring happiness? If no one who comes into the world dies, things will be a lot worse. If no one ever dies, we will probably all end up eating excrement! Where would we all stay? It's like pouring water into the glass without ceasing yet still not wanting it to be full. We really ought to think things through. We are born but don't want to die. If we really don't want to die, we should realize the deathless (amatadhamma), as the Buddha taught. Do you know what amatadhamma means?

It is the deathless - though you die, if you have wisdom it is as if you don't die. Not dying, not being born. That's where things can be finished. Being born and wishing for happiness and enjoyment without dying is not the correct way at all. But that's what people want, so there is no end of suffering for them. The practitioner of Dhamma does not suffer. Well, practitioners such as ordinary monks still suffer, because they haven't yet fulfilled the path of practice. They haven't realized amatadhamma, so they still suffer. They are still subject to death.

Amatadhamma is the deathless. Born of the womb, can we avoid death? Apart from realizing that there is no real self, there is no way to avoid death. ''I'' don't die; sankhāras undergo transformation, following their nature.

Ajahn Chah
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Even_One_Word_Is.php
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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