Is there a real world out there?...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:44 pm

Sam Vara wrote:The third view is skillful to the extent that the proponents of the other two views are more inclined to leave you alone, seeing you as less of a challenge to their views. You also don't have to garner evidence in support of your view, leaving you with more time to meditate and be nice to cats, etc.


Yes, good answer. ;)
I'm a lumberjack, and I'm OK....
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Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Postby SDC » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:03 pm

In addition to the Sabba Sutta from the OP, perhaps the Mūlapariyāya Sutta can shed some light on this topic. I've mulled over this sutta for years and seem to get something a little different from it each time, but I think the crux of the discourse is to practice towards an avoidance of the common arrangement of experience - constantly trying to construct a world in relation to a self.

The Sabba Sutta clearly states that all there is is the experience and all the experience is is this construction of a self perceiving a world: the eye and what is seen, the ear and what is heard, the nose and what is smelled, the tongue and what is tasted, the body and what is touched and the thinking and what is thought. This scheme is what there is to work with towards liberation. And within this scheme the common person will learn how to become supreme. I would move to argue that the Buddha is - borrowing from Ven. N's usage - prioritizing the experience in this sutta, and making it quite clear that the only thing that needs attending to are these "interactions" between the self and the world. The interactions, not the self or the world. The "how" of experience more than the "what". No denial of either, but a call to focus on how these ideas are coming about. Within these interactions stated in the Sabba Sutta we have the instructions in the Mūlapariyāya Sutta to move from indefinite, unconscious construction and orientation of the things that are perceived to a state of knowing with no construction.

Not sure if I brought anything to the discussion, but this occurred to me on my ride home from work and I figured I would throw it out there. :smile:
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Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Postby appicchato » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:11 pm

https://medium.com/p/1c31959b2e56

Although the above link is basically a dig at Gombrich, I found this essay (somewhat) pertinent/applicable to the present topic...or not...more grist for the mill...
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Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Postby SamKR » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:02 am

chownah wrote:I think that we mostly all agree that there is no proof one way or the other about the existence of the real world out there......so we each adopt a view as to which it is or the view that we do not know.

For those who adopt the view that it exists I ask in what way is this skillful?
For those who adopt the view that it does not exist I ask in what way is this skillful.
For those who adopt the view that they do not know I ask in what way is this skillful.

chownah

Isn't there the fourth view that neither obsesses with the polarity of existence and non-existence, nor does it say "I do not know"? And this fourth view is skillful because it is the Right View (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).
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Re: Is there a real world out there?...

Postby pegembara » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:11 am

A fish cannot know what is on land or air until it gets caught by a fisherman or an eagle. Do we really think the world(of our senses) is really all there is out there?
Is our "world" any more real than that of the fish? Do humans have the final say on what is real?

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.


Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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