Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

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Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

Postby girrafe » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:36 am

hi new here.

can someone pls explain better what the faultless gifts verse mean. maybe its the wording.

1. the first part goes like "there is the case where the disciple of the noble one abandons or abstains from taking life. in doing so, he gives freedom from danger ... to limitless numbers of being"

what does "he gives freedom from" mean.

2. and the second part goes like "in giving freedom from danger...he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger"

what does it mean?

is there some kind of a cause and effect thing going in there?
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Re: Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:14 am

From AN 8.39 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):
There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the first gift, the first great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. And this is the fourth reward of merit


So if someone abstains from killing other people, s/he basically offers a gift, the gift of freedom from danger, animosity, etc. to other people... As opposed to someone who kills, thus offering a curse which robs other people the freedom from danger, animosity, etc..

The "gains a share" part could mean both the immediate wholesome result one gets in the present life and the favorable rebirths in the future due to the wholesome kamma s/he's doing..
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Re: Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

Postby girrafe » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:10 am

I see.

so the first part goes like you give others the chance or the opportunity or peace of mind to live safely.

to the second part, what are the "immediate wholesome results" one could gain from doing so?
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Re: Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:50 am

girrafe wrote:I see.

so the first part goes like you give others the chance or the opportunity or peace of mind to live safely.

to the second part, what are the "immediate wholesome results" one could gain from doing so?

From a practical stand point one of the immediate results is that you get to be around people who are relaxed and probably more friendly as compared to being around people who are anxious, fearful, and withdrawn.
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Re: Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:58 am

girrafe wrote:to the second part, what are the "immediate wholesome results" one could gain from doing so?


For example, if one kills some person, one will immediately face the fear of his or her relatives trying to kill one in return for revenge, or the anxiety of covering up all the tracks to escape the law, or being caught and tried in court, etc.. Abstaining from killing allows the immediate peace of mind for oneself. Similarly for the other precepts..
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Re: Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

Postby girrafe » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:26 am

I see.

I have another follow up question.

so can anyone say, I don't know if Buddha said anything directly or inferred to the effect of humans (the victims of (or acquaintances of those affected by) physical injury, stealing, lying) [b]always[/b] react negatively (meaning fearfully or anxiously or with anguish or defensively or aggressively or vengefully) towards experiences of injury, stealing or lying.

I don't know if you understood the question but can anyone say if not said by the Buddha that things like killing, lying and stealing always bring suffering to others therefore make other react negatively (from which you try to guard yourself from) meaning the inherent effects of stealing, lying an d killing are those negative reactions?
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Re: Expansion or rewording of the five faultless gifts

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:45 am

giraffe,
I think you are asking if the Buddha taught that the victims of stealing (for example) always have negative reactions. I think that the Buddha did not teach this. If you think about it you can see this in everyday life....a child in my neighborhood stole some small item from me and I had no negative reaction to speak of and just considered it to be part of growing up. Also the Christian religion teaches people to not have negative reactions when wronged.

Also, I think you are asking if the negativeness of stealing is just the negative reactions it creates in the victims....and I think that there are other negative things happening as well and that some of these happen to the thief....a thief might become lazy since stealing is easier than working.....I can't think of anything else right now and need to go plant some vegetables since you can't steal vegetables from an empty field!(joke).

On the other hand if you lived in a fantasy world where no one cared if you stole their stuff then it wouldn't really be stealing I guess.
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