Self vs Soul

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Self vs Soul

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:09 pm

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this:
This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


"With regard to those brahmans & contemplatives who are of the view, of the opinion, 'All is pleasing to me': A wise person among them considers that 'If I were to grasp and insist firmly on this view of mine that "All is pleasing to me," and to state that "Only this is true, all else is worthless," I would clash with two — the brahman or contemplative who is of the view, of the opinion that "All is not pleasing to me" and the brahman or contemplative who is of the view, of the opinion that "A part is pleasing to me; a part is not pleasing to me." I would clash with these two. Where there is a clash, there is dispute. Where there is a dispute, quarreling. Where there is quarreling, annoyance. Where there is annoyance, frustration.' Envisioning for himself clash, dispute, quarreling, annoyance, frustration, he both abandons that view and does not cling to another view. Thus there is the abandoning of these views; thus there is the relinquishing of these views.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So self view, is a view that should be abandoned

That is done by being mindfully aware and seeing how views arise

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


;)
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
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Re: Self vs Soul

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:23 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Nothing they are both the same and both come from the same place, namely clinging to the aggregates

When there is clinging there is a notion of "I am", we create and identity around that to which we cling to and view it as permanent, calling it self or soul

We then go on to make theories about that to which we cling, saying it either lives on after death for ever... or is annihilated at death and is met with oblivion etc

or that it is beautiful, or ugly etc


Thank you clw_uk. You have helped me in past overcome a crises of faith [ remember my question elsewhere on physical fitness pursuits and Buddhism ]

Can you help me this time. That time you suggested I let time and practice overcome some attachments. Will this be wrong -

arijitmitter wrote:
I will follow the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path. I will believe that almost everything that comes out of human mind [ which is a slave to feelings, perception, consciousness ] is false and illusory. However I will not accept 100 % of his teachings. Only 99 %. And there is no wrong in that. Many Buddhists do not believe in rebirth. Similarly I will believe [ perhaps wrongly in opinion of all of you ] to take Anatta as striving to ego less state [ be relieved of " I " and " Mine " ] and not disbelieve in a passive, attributeless soul [ be that of a cockroach or a human - something that keeps the flame of life alive and is not present in a dead being ].

I believe human mind is ever changing. If I believe in a soul and continue study of Buddhism, with that and meditation perhaps a time will come when I will no longer believe in the soul. As Buddha said many times - do not believe me, do it yourself and see.

Such as a person starting Buddhism who is very addicted to eating hamburgers might find it difficult to give up consumption of meat, but after 5 years he may himself want to give it up. I do not deny that the belief in soul maybe a fetter for me. But one cannot tear every fetter away by force. Some have to fall away naturally.


:namaste: Arijit
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Re: Self vs Soul

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:55 pm

arijitmitter wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Nothing they are both the same and both come from the same place, namely clinging to the aggregates

When there is clinging there is a notion of "I am", we create and identity around that to which we cling to and view it as permanent, calling it self or soul

We then go on to make theories about that to which we cling, saying it either lives on after death for ever... or is annihilated at death and is met with oblivion etc

or that it is beautiful, or ugly etc


Thank you clw_uk. You have helped me in past overcome a crises of faith [ remember my question elsewhere on physical fitness pursuits and Buddhism ]

Can you help me this time. That time you suggested I let time and practice overcome some attachments. Will this be wrong -

arijitmitter wrote:
I will follow the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path. I will believe that almost everything that comes out of human mind [ which is a slave to feelings, perception, consciousness ] is false and illusory. However I will not accept 100 % of his teachings. Only 99 %. And there is no wrong in that. Many Buddhists do not believe in rebirth. Similarly I will believe [ perhaps wrongly in opinion of all of you ] to take Anatta as striving to ego less state [ be relieved of " I " and " Mine " ] and not disbelieve in a passive, attributeless soul [ be that of a cockroach or a human - something that keeps the flame of life alive and is not present in a dead being ].

I believe human mind is ever changing. If I believe in a soul and continue study of Buddhism, with that and meditation perhaps a time will come when I will no longer believe in the soul. As Buddha said many times - do not believe me, do it yourself and see.

Such as a person starting Buddhism who is very addicted to eating hamburgers might find it difficult to give up consumption of meat, but after 5 years he may himself want to give it up. I do not deny that the belief in soul maybe a fetter for me. But one cannot tear every fetter away by force. Some have to fall away naturally.


:namaste: Arijit



My best advice is to be aware more and more, since when we just observe we see things as they are instead of coming at something with a preconceived notion (of self or whatever), and to observe how this sense of "self" is created when we cling

So I would say observe attachment.
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
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Re: Self vs Soul

Postby arijitmitter » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:02 am

clw_uk wrote:
So I would say observe attachment.


I am trying my best and meditating on this issue for more than 48 hours now. Perhaps some light will come to my mind in a few days or weeks,

Thank you clw_uk

:namaste: Arijit
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Re: Self vs Soul

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:07 am

arijitmitter wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
So I would say observe attachment.


I am trying my best and meditating on this issue for more than 48 hours now. Perhaps some light will come to my mind in a few days or weeks,

Thank you clw_uk

:namaste: Arijit



In relation to your previous post, maybe reflecting on this sutta may help you

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So of instead of asking "Do I have a self/soul" simply focus on "stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress."


all the best
Open your mind and see, open your mind and rise. Shine the light of wisdom and see, don't wait till the end of time.
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