What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

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manas
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What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby manas » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:19 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

chownah
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby chownah » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:09 am

I think that to get to the disgust one probably needs to be Noble but I think the teaching is meant for yet-to-be Nobles as I think it is pointing the way for them...encouraging them to develop right view towards the six sense media for example.
chownah

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:44 am

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

santa100
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby santa100 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:17 am

As Bhante mentioned, the way one sees what is seen is very important. Notice SN 35.60 is located in Salayatana Vagga, the Book of the Six Sense Bases. The suttas before it (SN 53-59) all instructed one to look at the sense faculties and their corresponded objects as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. SN 35.60 follows the same pattern except it also includes contact (as the meeting of faculties/objects/consciousness) and feeling. By continuously "seeing thus" (seeing things as impermanent, suffering, and non-self) eventually one will experience revulsion, becomes dispassionate, etc..

Sylvester
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:32 am

I am with the camp that interprets this, especially anything with nibbidā in it, as pertaining to the trainee, ie someone already a Stream Winner.

Seeing thus = Evaṃ passaṃ. I take the evaṃ to be a reference to what was mentioned earlier, ie that contact is the necessary condition of feeling.

One could have an intellectual understanding of DO, but passati being one of those verbs related to insight, would suggest that this is something realised directly.

I am not sure if nibbindati (nis+vindati = becomes weary/disenchanted) needs to import something as powerful as disgust. If one looks at the Vedic roots of the word vindati, it speaks of a search for something, leading to what is found (veda). So perhaps, nis+vindati points to the loss of interest in those things we go out in search of.

pegembara
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby pegembara » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:38 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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manas
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby manas » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:53 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

binocular
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby binocular » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:03 am


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manas
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby manas » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:21 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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manas
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby manas » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:48 am

Thank you also, santa, Sylvester, pegembara and binocular, for your input.

It always comes back to the simple: stay on, and keep practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, this is what leads to Nibbana. Must keep going...keep developing.

kind regards'
manas :anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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reflection
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:21 am

I think it is twofold. First it is a teaching, and second it is a statement on how things are seen (right view).

In my eyes, the teaching aspect is not aimed at sotapanna, because they already understand this teaching. There is no use explaining something to somebody who already understands that thing. So in the first place, the Buddha said this to his disciples who didn't yet understand. Of course, here sotapannas can use the encouragement of the Buddha to let go further of the attachment to the senses, but they don't need to cultivate their view anymore. So the teaching itself can be reflected upon by anyone, whether sotapanna or not.

But on a deeper level, it speaks of "seen thus" which indicates not an intellectual understanding, but an experience. I'm with what Sylvester has said on it. But to clarify it a bit further: it says eye meets an object, the meeting is contact - that's it. The important thing here is that there is no other thing involved. So understanding this, in a sense is understanding anatta. And this also gives rise to the 'disgust' or repulsion. Because one sees no self in it all, there is no need to sustain the process. It is empty, so worthless in a sense. And it is this repulsion that drives those without self-view to nibbana. Of course the repulsion has more aspects, including understanding how clinging to the feeling leads to suffering, but you get the idea of my post I think.

:anjali:
Reflection

chownah
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby chownah » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:24 pm

Eye plus eye object plus eye consciousness equals contact?
chownah

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kirk5a
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:41 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

SamKR
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Re: What does the Buddha mean by "seeing thus" here?

Postby SamKR » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:46 am



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