Should Wives Be Obedient?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

The system the Buddha teaches doesn't look like one of sub-servience to me - it's a form of mutual duty and service, and to that extent I think it's a beautiful thing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
You would really expect your wife to get up before you and go to bed after you as part of her service to you?

Speaking for myself, my wife is not my servant in any shape. form, or manner; rather, she is an equal partner.

•he should respect her wishes as she his,
•both should give pleasure and be of sweet speech.
•the parents and elders and all those whom they hold in esteem, should be reverenced and honoured;
•they both should be skilful in all the duties of the household and child rearing;
(Since most average Westerners do not have servant and both partners work, the following two item can be altered:)
•they both should look after the house and its upkeep.
•they should safeguard each other's interests and look after their wealth; both should be of virtuous conduct in every way.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:You would really expect your wife to get up before you and go to bed after you as part of her service to you?
No, I wouldn't. It's the underlying notion of mutual duty and service itself that I find appealing, as opposed to specific possible prescriptive examples of it.

It seems there's all too many people nowadays who aren't willing to do something for someone else without expecting anything in return, and what might look like a modern enlightened "equal partner" concept can at times be little more than a transactional market-place of mutual exchange and territorial power-plays. That feels like a lot of effort to me.

As the Buddha taught, the merit associated with offerings is dependent upon the intention and state of mind in which it is offered. If someone can't give of themselves without it being part of a transactional bargain, then I think it's their loss.

The more selfless the intent, the greater the potential union, yet also the greater personal risk. Personally, I believe in courage and have faith in the efficacy of kamma...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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BlackBird
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by BlackBird »

Modus.Ponens wrote:I'm sorry, but does anybody else sense trolling?
Nah. Don't think so. Gender roles are very rigid in Asian Buddhist countries and the Buddha's words from the Suttas are often drawn up to support these ideas.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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SamKR
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by SamKR »

:goodpost: , Retro, as usual.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:
As the Buddha taught, the merit associated with offerings is dependent upon the intention and state of mind in which it is offered. If someone can't give of themselves without it being part of a transactional bargain, then I think it's their loss.
Giving of one's self without expectation of return, it goes without saying. Among other things, it is part of a mutual loving relationship that plays itself out over time through the hard times and good times a couple/family may have.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
wormhole
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by wormhole »

Ben wrote:
wormhole wrote:I think depending on the person it may be wise for their Dharma to be in a traditional, Bhudda-taught role.
It would be wise for them to practice the Noble Eightfold Path and not live as a doormat to a domineering husband.
Agreed. I didn't say otherwise. If one was to follow the Buddha-taught roles of the wife rigidly, then conversely the husband would have to practice his as they were taught, which would prevent abuse, in theory.

Personally, I find the Buddha's teachings wise-guidelines that can still help us today, but me must tailor them to our own individual and personally I could never have a subservient wife; just wouldn't give me the same happiness of having a COMPLETELY equal relationship. The purpose of this thread was to see if others thought a subservient wife role was still good for some women, which I've always gone back and forth on in opinion in regards to that.
arijitmitter
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by arijitmitter »

At that time ( or even till 100 years back ) Asian men who were wealthy had several wives and mistresses. It would be necessary for them to be subservient or argument will break out in the household.

This is true even now in rigid Islamic countries ( harem ). You can still see a snapshot of society from 2,500 years back in India in any Islamic nation. Women are not allowed to drive, not allowed to speak to strangers, not allowed education and so on. It is a totally different universe from what all of us are used to.

Was the woman Buddha was instructing the only wife ? Probably not.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by tiltbillings »

arijitmitter wrote:At that time ( or even till 100 years back ) Asian men who were wealthy had several wives and mistresses. It would be necessary for them to be subservient or argument will break out in the household.

This is true even now in rigid Islamic countries ( harem ). You can still see a snapshot of society from 2,500 years back in India in any Islamic nation. Women are not allowed to drive, not allowed to speak to strangers, not allowed education and so on. It is totally a different Universe from what all of us are used to.

Was the woman Buddha was instructing the only wife ? Probably not.
And the point is that the Buddha's instructions, as literally read, need to be adapted to a very different time and cultural differences.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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SDC
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by SDC »

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Wow this thread is stupid.

Sorry to all for the negative post but I had to say it.
It probably is stupid, rather than pooping on the thread, why don't you try to add some insight and intelligence into it.
I did by saying it was stupid. :smile:
wormhole wrote:
SDC wrote:Wow this thread is stupid.

Sorry to all for the negative post but I had to say it.
How is discussing the Buddha's teachings stupid?
Some enjoy answering loaded questions, but I don't. Enjoy feeling like your agenda has something to do with the teachings of the Buddha.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Aloof
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Aloof »

wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm

Every word of this Sutta is absolutely right.
This sutta applies to 100% pure women and 100 % pure men.
Present men and women after many centuries of start of men and women and intermixing
are not pure.
Men have more than 50% male qualities but much below 100%,
and women vice versa.
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Ben
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Ben »

Aloof wrote:
wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm

Every word of this Sutta is absolutely right.
This sutta applies to 100% pure women and 100 % pure men.
Present men and women after many centuries of start of men and women and intermixing
are not pure.
Men have more than 50% male qualities but much below 100%,
and women vice versa.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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PeterB
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by PeterB »

wormhole wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is response of the fundamentalist, literalist Christian to not taking the Bible as being true in every word that is written in the Bible.
Any Christians who don't take all words of the Bible as true are contradicting their own religion. They believe an omniscient supreme deity inspired their word, meaning every word should be correct.
Really ? I am a member of the Orthodox church and I think that the Bible is a ragbag of genuine insights, true record, sublime poetry, myths, and politics...and so do most non- Evangelical Christians that I know.
Your judgement is like assuming that all Buddhists are Soka-Gakkai.

After centuries of working through gender politics it is astonishing to a Christian to see western and western educated Buddhists having to INITIATE that dialogue...
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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:
Aloof wrote:
wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm

Every word of this Sutta is absolutely right.
This sutta applies to 100% pure women and 100 % pure men.
Present men and women after many centuries of start of men and women and intermixing
are not pure.
Men have more than 50% male qualities but much below 100%,
and women vice versa.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Bilge water.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Kim OHara
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Kim OHara »

BlackBird wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:I'm sorry, but does anybody else sense trolling?
Nah. Don't think so. Gender roles are very rigid in Asian Buddhist countries and the Buddha's words from the Suttas are often drawn up to support these ideas.
I'm with you, Modus.Ponens, and with SDC. Very smelly right for the start: a question asked by a newbie and neatly framed to generate controversy between those who respect the spirit of the teachings and those who respect its scriptures ... making it unresolvable. :toilet:

:namaste:
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Aloof
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Aloof »

Ben wrote:
Aloof wrote:
wormhole wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

All the time cosmic energy coming down splits.

Pure Cosmic energy male was action oriented and dictative.
Pure Cosmic energy female was emotional and subjective.

Today males have emotional energies to some extent and
females have also been forced to become action oriented to survive.
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