Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:47 am

I am reading the following paragraph and have the following questions.
a) Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not mentioned here?
b) Are we talking here about the Nirodha-samapatti?
===================================
Once the mind can detach itself from the pleasure & equanimity offered by jhāna, it can be inclined toward that which transcends jhāna — the unconditioned quality of deathlessness.
'There is the case, Ānanda, where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, empty, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines it to the phenomenon [dhamma] of deathlessness: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; Unbinding."
'Staying right there, he reaches the ending of effluents. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this very Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters* — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. [Similarly with the other levels of jhāna up through the dimension of nothingness.]'
— MN 64
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-3.html
SarathW
 
Posts: 2224
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby pegembara » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:04 am

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Nirodha is the "9th jhana" ( cessation of feeling & perception).

Once the mind can detach itself from the pleasure & equanimity offered by jhāna, it can be inclined toward that which transcends jhāna — the unconditioned quality of deathlessness.
'There is the case, Ānanda, where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, empty, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines it to the phenomenon [dhamma] of deathlessness: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; Unbinding."
'Staying right there, he reaches the ending of effluents. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this very Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters* — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. [Similarly with the other levels of jhāna up through the dimension of nothingness.]'
— MN 64


In 8th and 9th jhana the mind is shut down. Only after emerging the mind can ferret things out, turns away and incline towards nibbana.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
 
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:38 am

Hi Pegembara
Your reply is very helpful. :)
The way I understand Buddha learned the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception from Udaka Arama.
Buddha is the first person to experience the cessation of feeling & perception.
Am I correct?

Do you think non Ariyas (Jhana meditators) can attain the cessation of feeling & perception?
SarathW
 
Posts: 2224
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby pegembara » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:14 am

I am not able to answer. Perhaps someone else can.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
 
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby chownah » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:47 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Pegembara
Your reply is very helpful. :)
The way I understand Buddha learned the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception from Udaka Arama.
Buddha is the first person to experience the cessation of feeling & perception.
Am I correct?

Do you think non Ariyas (Jhana meditators) can attain the cessation of feeling & perception?

If cessation of feeling and perception is the 9th jhana then I guess you would have to be a jhana meditator to attain it by definition.
Also, I think that it is likely that someone who has attained all the jhanas could very easily attain ariyahood unless there was some compelling reason why they were avoiding ariyahood.
chownah
chownah
 
Posts: 2722
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:16 am

Hi Chownah
The way I understand, only Vipassana meditators will be able to attain the cessation of feeling & perception.
The Samath meditators need an object to sustain their meditations which is lack in the cessation of feeling and perception.
Those who have cultivated the Jhānas or Ecstasies are born on higher planes or sphere.
There is no plane called Cessation of feeling and perception. It is a temporary suspension of consciousness which last only about seven days.
In my opinion it is wrong to say Cessation of feeling and perception as Jhanas. :shrug:

I like to know what others think about it.
SarathW
 
Posts: 2224
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:39 am

Some further info:
My previous post I said:
There is no plane called Cessation of feeling and perception.
================
But now I found the following:
=======================
In the eleventh plane, called the Asaññasatta, beings are
born without a consciousness.
Here only a material flux exists. Mind is temporarily suspended
while the force of the Jhāna lasts. Normally both
mind and matter are inseparable. By the power of meditation
it is possible, at times, to separate matter from mind as in this particular case. When an Arahant attains the Nirodha
Samāpatti, too, his consciousness ceases to exist temporarily.
Such a state is almost inconceivable to us. But there may be inconceivable
things which are actual facts.
Page:346
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
SarathW
 
Posts: 2224
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:46 am

Further information relating to op:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19012
SarathW
 
Posts: 2224
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am


Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: greenjuice, palchi and 4 guests