Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Sam Vara »

Benjamin wrote:I would be quite lost without a living teacher. This is why Thanissaro, Brahm, Amaro, Chah, Sumedho, etc. are in my opinion indispensable. .
Your point is a very good one, but Ajahn Chah has been dead for over 20 years. The rest are apparently alive and in good health!
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Zom
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Zom »

Nice article, quite blunt, but true. 8-)
socratessmith
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by socratessmith »

And you have something better to offer us than the pali canon???
Yes, Lyndon, the raw capacity for human thought. Human thought is infinitely superior to Buddhist thought. And I say that having practiced Buddhism very strictly for forty years. If you're unsure what I mean by this, and why I recommend thinking over Buddhist thought, have a look here:

http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2011/ ... ectualism/
http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2013/ ... hs-flight/

May you be free of subjugating systems such as Buddhism. Abandon the raft! What are you waiting for, bro?
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Kusala
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Kusala »

socratessmith wrote:
And you have something better to offer us than the pali canon???
Yes, Lyndon, the raw capacity for human thought.Human thought is infinitely superior to Buddhist thought. And I say that having practiced Buddhism very strictly for forty years. If you're unsure what I mean by this, and why I recommend thinking over Buddhist thought, have a look here:

http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2011/ ... ectualism/
http://speculativenonbuddhism.com/2013/ ... hs-flight/

May you be free of subjugating systems such as Buddhism. Abandon the raft! What are you waiting for, bro?
"Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace".
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
socratessmith
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by socratessmith »

"Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace".
Kusala: Better than the ventriloquized words of the phantom Buddha is your own unique expression.
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Anagarika
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Anagarika »

May you be free of subjugating systems such as Buddhism. Abandon the raft! What are you waiting for, bro?
Socrates, the Buddha taught liberation, not subjugation. If you've experienced subjugation or oppression in your many years of practice, I am very sorry for that. One fault of Buddhism in the west is that it has taken on some forms that the Buddha would, in my estimation, have found abhorrent. I've not found anything in the practice that has oppressed me; rather is it life in the west that can be found to be oppressive, and the Buddhadhamma a practice that can provide release from this suffering and stress. Whatever path you choose that works for you, is the best one for you. Metta
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Samma »

I see the value of secular Buddhism in questioning myth, and so on. But some criticism not terribly well laid out out like accusing Thanissaro of faith in an eternal atman, self congratulation, rudeness, and the like, often seems to come from spec-non-bud. Thanks to those that have something substantial to offer on the translation and meaning front, rather than what seems to be largely grasping at straws or veering off into spec-non-land.

Certainly seems like some Buddhists assert reality of atman, such as thai dhammakaya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Buddhism%29

At nibanna, questions of self and not-self are put aside...probably the best thing I can say. If someone believed in soul they would say something like you reach your true self eh? Thanissaro said he uses word stress for dukkha, because typical translation of suffering does not make sense for more subtle forms of dukkha. Thats all, what is all this stuff about being essential part of this particular type of Buddhism, or that it assumes we are a core unified thing. The rest of the essay I'll leave alone like everyone else.
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by pulga »

Given that whatever merit ”French Theory” has is derived from the thought of Heidegger, perhaps Ven. Ñanavira who handled such ideas in a much more thoughtful and focused way in his efforts to become enlightened through his practice and careful study of the Dhamma has something to offer those who are reluctant to jettison the Suttas in favor of their own independent line of thinking. The Suttas offer us a hermeneutical challenge to reconcile the historical preservation of the Buddha's teaching – however imperfect that preservation might be – and our own imperfect understanding of what it means to be enlightened.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
SarathW
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by SarathW »

As you all know there are many words to describe Nirvana. But we all know that Nirvana should be experienced not one can be understood by words.
If Ven T wants to call it unestablished consciousness or unconditioned consciousness, I have no problem with that.
We all agree that there is Nirvana.
He never said that there is a person who attained unestablished consciousness.
I also have noticed that he uses his own words to express his understanding . For example he says stress for Dukkha it make me more sense.

But I personally like to call Nirvana as Nirvana.

:meditate:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Sylvester
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Sylvester »

Mr Man wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Ven T is too astute a translator to have misunderstood the Pali.
Hi Sylvester,
So why then would he mistranslate?
Hi Mr Man

That's a very loaded question, but I'll try to handle it as diplomatically as possible.

Firstly, "translation" is not an easy enterprise with Pali. A lot of interpretive techniques and tools are also involved, to say nothing of the ambient doctrine/views that closes off certain interpretive pathways or suggests others. So, it would perhaps be fairer to say that Ven T was not merely translating that passage, but interpreting it.

But the question "why" is an enquiry into motive as well. I don't know what sort of formative associations he has made in Thailand that may the "voice of another" informing his worldview. From his writings, he seems worshipfully devoted to his teacher Ajahn Fuang. What sort of influence was Ajahn Fuang on him, in terms of how Ven T now views certain topics, eg -

1. rumination in jhana? Was his mistranslation of a key passage in DN 9 that contradicts his position deliberate or accidental?
2. idappaccayatā? Of the attested forms and functions of the locative absolute in Pali grammar (plus potential/theoretical forms), why does he insist that the 1st and 3rd limbs of idappaccayatā fit into one of the attested forms but which is without the purported function he attributes to it?

These I cannot fathom, no more than I can fathom why he thinks the sutta speak of an unestablished consciousness that survives in a post-mortem happily ever after.

:anjali:
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Mr Man
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Mr Man »

Hi Sylvester
Sorry if the question seemed (over) loaded and thanks for the reply.
:anjali:
mal4mac
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by mal4mac »

Samma wrote:I see the value of secular Buddhism in questioning myth, and so on. But some criticism not terribly well laid out out like accusing Thanissaro of faith in an eternal atman, self congratulation, rudeness, and the like, often seems to come from spec-non-bud.
I also find them a bit rude, and often the criticism is not terribly well laid out & unclear, but they ask some good questions and make some telling points, now and again. Their suggestion that Thanissaro believes in a "kind-of-soul" has some justification. Do you disagree that Thanissaro pushes the idea of an "unconditioned consciousness"? I just read a translation of his that was very useful, to me, on "body meditation", and am always reading useful translations by him, so I certainly wouldn't support the rudeness, and general criticism, that spec-non-bud direct at him. But, on this one one point, I think Thanissaro might be obfuscating matters, although he makes things clearer many times more than he make things unclear... not many can say that...
Samma wrote: Thanks to those that have something substantial to offer on the translation and meaning front, rather than what seems to be largely grasping at straws or veering off into spec-non-land.
Seconded. Unless you think I'm one grasping at straws :) Thanks for the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Buddhism%29

One very good quote from there:

Candrakīrti: “Ātman is an essence of things that does not depend on others; it is an intrinsic nature. The non-existence of that is selflessness.”

Surely Candrakīrti is right here, that is, in implying that postulating the existence of ātman, or ‘unconditioned consciousness’, is undesirable? Doing so provides a basis for attachment and aversion, for feelings like “I must get this unconditioned consciousness”, when there is nothing to get. Not ‘unconditioned consciousness’, not anything else, everything must be let go...

From that Wikipedia article, it seems Paul Williams really likes the soulful "true self" doctrine. Perhaps not surprising, then, that he converted to Roman Catholicism...

Just Let Go,
Mal
- Mal
mal4mac
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by mal4mac »

pulga wrote:Given that whatever merit ”French Theory” has is derived from the thought of Heidegger...
Keep reading the blog. They attack Heidegger, correctly in my opinion, pointing out that his thought led him to fascism. This is part of an attack on Stephen Batchelor, who has waffled on too much about Heidegger, while making many good points on other matters...
pulga wrote: , perhaps Ven. Ñanavira who handled such ideas in a much more thoughtful and focused way...
Shame he didn't make some effort to make them clearer! I've tried reading "Clearing", but gave up, it's tougher going than Kant's first critique, or Heideggers "Being"... Why not start a thread explicating some key views of Ven. Ñanavira that go against the grain? But please avoid "French speak" and "Hypehanted-Heideggerianisms", and stick to plain English.
- Mal
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by mal4mac »

SarathW wrote:As you all know there are many words to describe Nirvana...
No... there aren't any...
SarathW wrote: If Ven T wants to call it unestablished consciousness or unconditioned consciousness, I have no problem with that.
I have. Wittgenstein said something like, "that of which you cannot speak, you should be silent", expressing succinctly a profound philosophical view that has echoed down the ages, and that Ven T should take on board. Using phrases like 'unconditioned consciousness' is not helpful to me... and I can't see how it would be helpful to others... Bodhi doesn't use the phrase, why should Ven T? It just complicates matters, spreading confusion, at least in my mind..
But I personally like to call Nirvana as Nirvana.
That's reasonable ... you need some kind of 'pointing finger' for something that is "not this, not that, not unconditioned consciousness...'
:meditate:
Good point. I try. I blame Socrates for my inability...
- Mal
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Post by Mr Man »

mal4mac wrote: I have. Wittgenstein said something like, "that of which you cannot speak, you should be silent", expressing succinctly a profound philosophical view that has echoed down the ages, and that Ven T should take on board. Using phrases like 'unconditioned consciousness' is not helpful to me... and I can't see how it would be helpful to others... Bodhi doesn't use the phrase, why should Ven T? It just complicates matters, spreading confusion, at least in my mind..
I have no idea who Wittgenstein is but possibly your quote could mean something along the lines of Don't give instructions on how to fix a car if you don't know how to fix a car. Now possibly Ven. Thanissaro is coming from a tradition where they know how to fix the car? How are you trying to understand "'unconditioned consciousness' - now at that point we could interpret ""that of which you cannot speak, you should be silent" in another way
Last edited by Mr Man on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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