YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each other? - Dhamma Wheel

Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each other?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each other?

Postby starter » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:30 pm

Greetings! I'd like to share my current understanding of Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa:

Mano: one of the six sense organs for dhammas, i.e. the brain and nerve system, still belonging to kaaya (body), which is why the Buddha said:
"... But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body (mental body), and when the body is tired, the mind (citta) becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’

Mano should probably be better translated as mental sensory organ instead of "mind", which might have caused lots of confusion.

Citta: commonly understood as "mind", "heart", "soul". The pure citta (with no "waves") is the liberated mind unconditioned by defilements. The defiled citta is always associated with sense objects and is ever wavy/stormy, and the waves are Viññāṇa.

Viññāṇa: activities of the citta, arisen and exists only in relationship to sense objects (nama-rupa), hence consciousness is considered as one of the six elements of the mundane or phenomenal world. There are the translations of six sense consciousness and the rebirth consciousness. The rebirth consciousness ("soul") is the defiled citta.

Since the defiled citta appears as viññāṇa in the conditioned world, it can be called consciousness. However, a liberated mind (unconditioned pure citta) shouldn't be called consciousness, to my understand. Of course living arahants when not dwelling in the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling (when the residue, the five aggregates temporarily "disappear") still has unestablished consciousness, but nibbana without residue is certainly not consciousness. Then how to interpret the following:

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'" (AN 10.7)

As consciousness (“waves”) ceases, the transcendental perception of nibbana occurred to Ven. Sariputta during the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling during his dwelling in the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling. There's another sutta in which the Buddha mentioned that nibbana still has (transcendental) perception:

The Way to the Beyond, 6. Upasīva’s Questions:
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/E ... Beyond.pdf

“He who is passionless regarding all sense pleasures, who is
depending on nothingness, having given up all else, intent (dwelling?) on the
highest freedom which still has perception
- will he remain there
without going away?” [will he return to this world?]

“He who is passionless regarding all sense pleasures, who is depending
on nothingness, having given up all else, intent (dwelling?) on the highest freedom which still has perception - he will remain there without going away.”

The transcendental perception perceives the unconditioned, nibbana, as "This is the peaceful; this is the sublime....", but it's not viññāṇa, which perceives only the conditioned and has ceased.

Thanks and metta!

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2873
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby Mr Man » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:40 pm

Hi Starter
How does the first verse of the Dhammapada fit in with the above definition of Mano?

Manopubbangama dhamma
manosettha manomaya
manasa ce padutthena
bhasati va karoti va
tato nam dukkhamanveti
cakkamva vahato padam.

Verse 1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made. If one speaks or acts with an evil mind, 'dukkha' 3 follows him just as the wheel follows the hoofprint of the ox that draws the cart.


User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:53 pm

Hmm; I consider mano to be akin to the eye, where dhamma (pl.) are akin to eye-forms, so I am amenable to considering mano the macro brain structure. In this sense, mano underlies all thinking the way that the eye underlies all seeing.

Citta I consider as mind generally; it knits the six senses together and relies directly on sankhara, vedana, and sanna.

Vinnana, of course, is always requisite to any experience (vinnana-namarupa), and thus precedes or lies alongside the above two phenomena. Vinnana arises at mano-dhamma contact, and this triad (as well as certain other potential sensory inputs) underlies citta.

Citta and vinnana are thus different aspects, though it is true that citta is the target of the training. Vinnana can also perceive that greed, hatred, and delusion have been uprooted, or it can perceive that they yet persist. Vinnana which is rooted in greed, hatred, and delusion ceases, not vinnana altogether.

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby starter » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:29 pm


starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby starter » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:38 pm


User avatar
piotr
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby piotr » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:47 pm

Hi All,

There's good but long-ish paper on the topic titled “Citta, Mano, Vinnana—A Psychosemantic Investigation” by Rune E. A. Johansson.

http://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpress ... ansson.pdf
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

User avatar
equilibrium
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby equilibrium » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:39 pm


User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2873
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby Mr Man » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:11 am


starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby starter » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:10 pm

Hi friends,

Many thanks for all the very helpful input. “Citta, Mano, Vinnana—A Psychosemantic Investigation” by Rune E. A. Johansson
(http://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpress ... ansson.pdf) is good but I don't agree with some of his opinions.

Just to drop a few points now:

Mano:

"Of these five senses, different in range, different in field (=modality),
not reacting to the field and range of each other, mano (coordinating
center for the other senses) is the resort, and mano reacts to their field and range". (M I 195).

Mano is the mental sense organ which produces mental processes, inlcuding dreams (?). When mano is not yet developed/mature, we can't remember the life in mother's womb, the act of rebirth, and the life shortly after rebirth (I think there's consciousness there but no memory of the consciousness).

Citta:

S V 92, " ... there are these five impurities of the citta, tainted by which citta is neither fine, nor pliable, nor Iuminous, nor frail, nor perfectly composed for the destruction of the asava".

This passage implies that citta was transformed through the impurities, and that citta by itself and originally was pure as gold. This is supported by:

AN1:
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}]

The development/purification of citta is an end in itself (nibbana).

I'll comment on vinnana a bit more later.

Metta to all!

Starter

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby daverupa » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:15 pm


starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby starter » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:28 pm


User avatar
equilibrium
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: Mano · Citta · Viññāṇa: how do they relate to each othe

Postby equilibrium » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:11 am



Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: unspoken, Yahoo [Bot] and 34 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine