Is this a Mahayana teaching?

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Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby SarathW » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:14 am

Meaning of Nirvana :


It is now believed that It was only after he (Arhant) had passed away that he reached such a state of perfect tranquillity because some residue of human defilement would continue to exist as long as his physical body existed.




Page: 560 - The teaching of Buddha, Society for the promotion of Buddhism (Japan)
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby cooran » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:16 am

This is the Theravada teaching.

Nibbana as a living experience/The Buddha and the Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el407.html

With metta,
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby fabianfred » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:30 am

Certainly an Arahant still alive would receive vipaka from previous karma....but have equanimity about it.
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby SarathW » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:46 am

fabianfred wrote:Certainly an Arahant still alive would receive vipaka from previous karma....but have equanimity about it.



But he has not got residue of human defilement. (just what I think)
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:15 am

Greetings,

fabianfred wrote:Certainly an Arahant still alive would receive vipaka from previous karma....but have equanimity about it.

I wouldn't be so certain.

It is now believed that It was only after he (Arhant) had passed away that he reached such a state of perfect tranquillity because some residue of human defilement would continue to exist as long as his physical body existed.

The wording at least, seems very Mahayana. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it's a Mahayana attempt to interpret the "shravaka" position.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby cooran » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:36 am

fabianfred wrote:Certainly an Arahant still alive would receive vipaka from previous karma....but have equanimity about it.

I agree. See this previous thread. The problem seems to be that some people confuse vipaka with suffering. Vipaka is simply the result of kamma.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby Mr Man » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:56 am

cooran wrote:
fabianfred wrote:Certainly an Arahant still alive would receive vipaka from previous karma....but have equanimity about it.

I agree. See this previous thread. The problem seems to be that some people confuse vipaka with suffering. Vipaka is simply the result of kamma.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382

With metta,
Chris


From our perspective there might be vipaka and the suffering associated with a body but what is the Arahant's perspective? Does the vipaka belong to the Arahant?
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby SarathW » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:25 am

I agree that Buddha and Arahant also subject to their previous Karma. For example Buddha got injured when Devadatta though a stone at him. One Arahant was beaten to death by thieves.
I think that Arhant do not accumulate fresh kamma so it is inaccurate to say Arhant will have residue of human defilement.
Please see:
The 2 aspects of Nibbāna are:

1: The full ceasing of defilements kilesa-parinibbāna also called sa-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, i.e. 'Nibbāna with the groups of existence still remaining' see: upādi. This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect Nobility see: ariya-puggala.

2: The full ceasing of the groups of existence khandha-parinibbāna also called an-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, A. IV, 118, i.e. 'Nibbāna without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - App.: Nibbāna

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_n.htm
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby SarathW » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:36 am

cooran wrote:This is the Theravada teaching.

Nibbana as a living experience/The Buddha and the Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el407.html

With metta,
Chris

Hi Chris
Thanks for the link. I just finished reading it.
It is a very good article. Specially I like the way he/she explain Buddhism using modern science.
:)
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:13 am

Greetings,

SarathW wrote:I agree that Buddha and Arahant also subject to their previous Karma. For example Buddha got injured when Devadatta though a stone at him. One Arahant was beaten to death by thieves.

Do you view vipaka as something that operates and manifests "out there" (i.e. people throwing stones at you, or beating you)? Interesting. I can't say that's my experience of the operation of kamma. Mine accords more with Dhp.1...

"Mind precedes all experiences. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought."

... but people will perceive and interpret things how they perceive them I guess. It's not for my experiences to dictate otherwise.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby SarathW » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:28 am

Hi Retro
Interesting observation as usually you do. :)
I just do not think that the Vipaka operates the way I suggested.
But it is what I heard in Dhamma teaching.
Buddha’s body is a result of past Kamma so if someone through a stone at him that will hit him.
I think my body is a result of my past Kamma. Kamma is not only mental but physical too.
I know Kamma and Vipaka is there but I am not sure how it works.
I think it is one of unthinkable.
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:45 am

Greetings Sarath,

Yes, the precise workings are one of the unconjecturables.

Yet, kamma should be known...

AN 6.63: Nibbedhika Sutta wrote:"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later, and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby SarathW » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:59 am

Retro:
What do you think about the following?
======================

The Buddha’s foot was slightly injured ‘when Devadatta
made a futile attempt to kill Him. This was due to His killing
a step-brother of his in a previous birth with the object of appropriating
his property.


Page 282
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:22 am

Greetings Sarath,

I think that's the commentarial/hagiographical perspective.

Personally, I do not find it satisfactory (in fact, I find it decidedly superstitious and teetering on the edge of fatalism), but each to their own.

Again, I'm not here to criticise, merely to say that my observation of the operation of kamma and its place within the experiential context of the Dhamma (especially paticcasamuppada) differs from that mentioned by some posters above. Things were being taken as "certain", which to me (based upon my reading of the suttas and perceptions of kamma) are certainly not certain, and as Mr Man alludes to, will not be known for sure until each of us become arahants for ourselves. For us to attempt to describe aspects of the arahant's experience with certainty seems needlessly audacious to me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is this a Mahayana teaching?

Postby rohana » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:57 am

    Sallatha Sutta: The Dart

    An untaught worldling, O monks, experiences pleasant feelings, he experiences painful feelings and he experiences neutral feelings. A well-taught noble disciple likewise experiences pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. Now what is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists herein between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling?

    ...

    But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one.

    ...

    When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.

    Sallatha Sutta: The Dart
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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