How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:30 pm

Greetings,

Mr Man wrote:Bhante but you are taking Ajahn Sumedho's teaching out of context and forgetting that he is speaking in English to an English speaking audience. He is not teaching as a scholar. Perhaps you could address the OP rather than criticise your fellow monk's teaching?
:anjali:

Personally, I think it is good to see a bhikkhu critique the teachings of another bhikkhu. If a bhikkhu's words are never held to account, or to any standard, then the renown of bhikkhus would come to be based on attributes such as charisma and popularist story-telling.

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Retro. :)
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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby kmath » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:38 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Mr Man wrote:Bhante but you are taking Ajahn Sumedho's teaching out of context and forgetting that he is speaking in English to an English speaking audience. He is not teaching as a scholar. Perhaps you could address the OP rather than criticise your fellow monk's teaching?
:anjali:

Personally, I think it is good to see a bhikkhu critique the teachings of another bhikkhu. If a bhikkhu's words are never held to account, or to any standard, then the renown of bhikkhus would come to be based on attributes such as charisma and popularist story-telling.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Nothing against Ajahn Sumedho, but I also appreciate what Dhammanando said. Debate is good!
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Mr Man » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:59 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Mr Man wrote:Bhante but you are taking Ajahn Sumedho's teaching out of context and forgetting that he is speaking in English to an English speaking audience. He is not teaching as a scholar. Perhaps you could address the OP rather than criticise your fellow monk's teaching?
:anjali:

Personally, I think it is good to see a bhikkhu critique the teachings of another bhikkhu. If a bhikkhu's words are never held to account, or to any standard, then the renown of bhikkhus would come to be based on attributes such as charisma and popularist story-telling.

Metta,
Retro. :)


But in my opinion there is a time and a place. And in my opinion there should be a regard to the context. Perhaps I'm at fault for bringing this sermon to the OP's attention?
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby arijitmitter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:31 pm

Essential conclusions I can draw from the debate this far -

A ) Kamma is not a specific load to be discarded but something like a shadow which follows us (not very good analogy but will suffice). One has to change and with that change the Kammic shadow is discarded regardless of its magnitude. So killing an ant or 999 people is not important but changing from mindset of killing to one of compassion is important (and so on for all forms of Avidya)

B ) Mindfulness accelerates this change in perception. It lets us tame our mind and inclinations. When our mind is cured of its unwholesome inclinations by mindfulness, we shed our Kammic load and makes us Kamma neutral. Once we become Kamma neutral, it frees us up for proceeding on path of Nibbana.
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Aloka » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:38 pm

MrMan wrote:Bhante but you are taking Ajahn Sumedho's teaching out of context and forgetting that he is speaking in English to an English speaking audience. He is not teaching as a scholar. Perhaps you could address the OP rather than criticise your fellow monk's teaching?


Not only is he a monk but he was the greatly respected abbot of Amaravati monastery UK before he retired to Thailand. I am personally indebted to him for helping me with his teachings and personal instruction.
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:50 pm

Hi Arijit
This is how I understand it:
-Good Kamma (wholesome action=virtues=Sila) will lead the person to concentration (Samadhi)
- Concentration will lead the mind to see the things as they are
-Seen as they are means understanding impermanence, stress and Anatta so you attain Sotapanna
state
-Sotapanna person will eradicate attachment and aversion and gradually move to Anagami ( Nonreturner) state.
-Then he will fully eradicate ignorance (the thought I,me and myself) and attain Arahantship
:)
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:Personally, I think it is good to see a bhikkhu critique the teachings of another bhikkhu. If a bhikkhu's words are never held to account, or to any standard, then the renown of bhikkhus would come to be based on attributes such as charisma and popularist story-telling.


The Four Great References

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it.

When a teacher achieves mythical status, and his or her devotees start to think that he or she is beyond reproach, it is very dangerous for the preservation of the true teachings.
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:51 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When a teacher achieves mythical status, and his or her devotees start to think that he or she is beyond reproach, it is very dangerous for the preservation of the true teachings.
I have the highest regard for Ven Sumedho, but I agree with what you saying here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Mr Man » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When a teacher achieves mythical status, and his or her devotees start to think that he or she is beyond reproach, it is very dangerous for the preservation of the true teachings.
I have the highest regard for Ven Sumedho, but I agree with what you saying here.


I'm not sure if Bhikkhu Pesala was referring to Ven. Sumedho here but I don't think that I or anyone has suggested that Ven. Sumedho is beyond reproach.
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:26 am

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When a teacher achieves mythical status, and his or her devotees start to think that he or she is beyond reproach, it is very dangerous for the preservation of the true teachings.
I have the highest regard for Ven Sumedho, but I agree with what you saying here.


I'm not sure if Bhikkhu Pesala was referring to Ven. Sumedho here but I don't think that I or anyone has suggested that Ven. Sumedho is beyond reproach.
It applies.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Aloka » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When a teacher achieves mythical status, and his or her devotees start to think that he or she is beyond reproach, it is very dangerous for the preservation of the true teachings.
I have the highest regard for Ven Sumedho, but I agree with what you saying here.


Personally I think it is also very dangerous to rely entirely on the views and opinions of others in internet groups. Its is important to investigate for oneself in the outside world.

:anjali:
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Mr Man » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have the highest regard for Ven Sumedho, but I agree with what you saying here.


I'm not sure if Bhikkhu Pesala was referring to Ven. Sumedho here but I don't think that I or anyone has suggested that Ven. Sumedho is beyond reproach.
It applies.


What applies? Who has said Ven. Sumedho is beyond reproach.
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Mr Man » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:41 am

Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When a teacher achieves mythical status, and his or her devotees start to think that he or she is beyond reproach, it is very dangerous for the preservation of the true teachings.
I have the highest regard for Ven Sumedho, but I agree with what you saying here.


Personally I think it is also very dangerous to rely entirely on the views and opinions of others in internet groups. Its is important to investigate for oneself in the outside world.

:anjali:


Yes. I agree.
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:48 am

Mr Man wrote:What applies? Who has said Ven. Sumedho is beyond reproach.
What was said.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Sanjay PS » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:07 pm

Buddhas have always kept their teaching simple .

" Abstain from unwholesome actions , perform wholesome actions and purify your mind " .

They have also given us very simple , very ordinary tools in purifying our minds . Keep observing the natural flow of the breath , feeling on the sensations , develop equanimity based on the changing nature of the sensations , develop your own wisdom. However , mystical , magical or extraordinary be the experience and the powers gained , they pale in comparison to the quintessential insight of annica , dukkha and annata ........that which keeps on changing is nothing but sorrow , having nothing to abide by .

This has always been their best advise of the past , the present and of the future .
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Re: How Is Good Kamma Related To Nibbana

Postby Jason » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:08 pm

Skillful kamma, and particularly the kamma leading to the end of kamma (i.e., the noble eightfold path), leads us to a place where nibbana can be realized, a place where craving can be destroyed. Once craving, the root of the defilements (kilesas), has been eliminated, the skillful/unskillful kammic dichotomy, too, is eliminated since kamma is a mental component inherently tied to, and influenced by, greed, hatred, and delusion. Hence the noble eightfold path is called "the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma" because they're skillful actions that, when used appropriately, have the potential to ultimately lead to the elimination of the skillful/unskillful dichotomy altogether, leaving only happiness (Dhp XV), contentment (Thag 9), peace (Snp 2.1), freedom (SN 36.31), and moral perfection behind (AN 9.7). As St. Maximus writes in Opuscula theologica et polemica (albeit from a Christian perspective), "A perfect nature has no need of choice, for it knows naturally what is good. Its freedom is based on this knowledge."
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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