Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is bad?

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Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is bad?

Postby SarathW » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:04 am

(ii) Innumerable instances of unwholesome and wholesome kamma can be cited, but the Buddha selects ten of each as primary. These he calls the ten courses of unwholesome and wholesome action. Among the ten in the two sets, three are bodily, four are verbal, and three are mental. The ten courses of unwholesome kamma may be listed as follows, divided by way of their doors of expression:
1. Destroying life
2. Taking what is not given
3. Wrong conduct in regard to sense pleasures
Verbal action:
4. False speech
5. Slanderous speech
6. Harsh speech (vacikamma)
7. Idle chatter
8. Covetousness
9. Ill will
10. Wrong view
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html
==========================

I found it is very difficult for me to refrain from slanderous speech, harsh speech and idle chatter.
As a lay person, only way I can be social is by involving with these activities.
What should I do if I am in the middle of such discussion?
:mrgreen:
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby fivebells » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:25 am

Those actions are really anti-social, not social. They disconnect you from someone, that is why they are harmful. I am pretty certain not all of your speech falls into these categories, or you would be a complete pariah. If you find it hard to refrain, a good start is categorizing your speech this way, and noting the components of your utterances which do not fall into these categories.
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby appicchato » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:32 am

Not so much 'bad' as unskillful...at least that's the way this one tries to look at it...being skillful (at whatever) is an attribute most consider desirable...
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby seeker242 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:58 am

What kind of people do you socialize with where you can't be social if you don't slander, speak harshly, or babble about nonsense? Perhaps it's just the company you keep?
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby kmath » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:59 am

How is idle chatter defined?
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby purple planet » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:12 am

i think its one of the easiest things to do from all (note that easiest dosnt mean easy ! ) my practice is really bad now but the moment i start to meditate its the first thing that improves drastically

some tips :

to reduce idle chatter avoid the lounge section here

when you start to think you want to talk to someone ask yourself (every time) if its helpful to talk to them will it help to say what you are going to say or you can "live" without telling what you are going to say

Before each time you speak note "intention" to speak

dont be "sure" on anything be open minded - ask yourself "what if i am wrong?" - when you speak to someone add "i am not sure but i think" and also mean it - !! unless its something your 100% positive you know 100% of and you are a complete expert - but on this stuff there should be only a very few subjects - the majority of stuff you shouldn't be sure of nothing

be polite - "thanks" "your welcome" even if you dont mean it
Last edited by purple planet on Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby kmath » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:19 am

purple planet wrote:i think its one of the easiest things to do from all (note that easiest dosnt mean easy ! ) my practice is really bad now but the moment i start to meditate its the first thing that improves drastically

some tips :

to reduce idle chatter avoid the lounge section here

when you start to think you want to talk to someone ask yourself (every time) if its helpful to talk to them will it help to say what you are going to say or you can "live" without telling what you are going to say

Before each time you speak note "intention" to speak

dont be "sure" on anything be open minded - ask yourself "what if i am wrong?" - when you speak to someone add "i am not sure but i think" and also mean it

be polite - "thanks" "your welcome" even if you dont mean it


I get what idle chatter means. I'm just wondering if it's defined precisely in the suttas.
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby purple planet » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:21 am

ohh sorry :embarassed: ignored your question there -

well im not sure - but i think it means any talk which is not helpful - and like anything it can be taken to the extreme or not
depending on how much you want to be wholesome
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby kmath » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:24 am

purple planet wrote:ohh sorry :embarassed: ignored your question there -


:hug:

No problem.
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby cooran » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:28 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... amma-vaca/

Regarding idle chatter, the bit under Kinds of Speech to be avoided by Contemplatives may be helpful.

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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby Mkoll » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:41 am

SarathW wrote:I found it is very difficult for me to refrain from slanderous speech, harsh speech and idle chatter.
As a lay person, only way I can be social is by involving with these activities.
What should I do if I am in the middle of such discussion?
:mrgreen:


Don't get in the middle of such a discussion in the first place. The moment you start speaking wrongly, that wrong speech gains momentum and you revert to old bad habits. Nip it in the bud by not getting it started. Hold your tongue.

Stay away from negative people as much as reasonably possible! Either be content with seclusion or find a more positive group of friends who won't tempt you into slandering people.

:anjali:
Peace,
James
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:00 am

Mkoll wrote: Either be content with seclusion or find a more positive group of friends who won't tempt you into slandering people.


That's good advice, but sometimes difficult to achieve in work and family situations where one can't pick and choose who one is spending time with.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:33 pm

kmath wrote:How is idle chatter defined?


Usually a pericope:

talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby kmath » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:22 pm

daverupa wrote:
kmath wrote:How is idle chatter defined?


Usually a pericope:

talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not


So it's unwholesome kamma to talk about any one of these??
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:29 pm

kmath wrote:So it's unwholesome kamma to talk about any one of these??


AN 10.176 wrote:"And how is one made impure in four ways by verbal action?... He engages in idle chatter. He speaks out of season, speaks what isn't factual, what isn't in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya, words that are not worth treasuring.

...Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby bodom » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:22 pm

SarathW wrote:As a lay person, only way I can be social is by involving with these activities.
What should I do if I am in the middle of such discussion?


From Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Idle chatter is pointless talk, speech that lacks purpose or depth. Such speech communicates nothing of value, but only stirs up the defilements in one's own mind and in others. The Buddha advises that idle talk should be curbed and speech restricted as much as possible to matters of genuine importance. In the case of a monk, the typical subject of the passage just quoted, his words should be selective and concerned primarily with the Dhamma. Lay persons will have more need for affectionate small talk with friends and family, polite conversation with acquaintances, and talk in connection with their line of work. But even then they should be mindful not to let the conversation stray into pastures where the restless mind, always eager for something sweet or spicy to feed on, might find the chance to indulge its defiling propensities.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... d.html#ch4

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The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby seeker242 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:22 pm

I studied speech communication in college for a while. In my studies I came a cross a type of communication called "phatic communication" otherwise known as "small talk" This is the definition I like

phat•ic (ˈfæt ɪk)
adj.
denoting speech used to express or create an atmosphere of shared feelings, goodwill, or sociability rather than to impart information.

If the purpose of the speech is to create an atmosphere of friendlessness and goodwill, can it still be called idle chatter? Even though it might be all just "small talk"? Imparting friendliness to another person is a good thing, is it not? The speech would not be for your own benefit but for the benefit of the other person or people, to make them feel like you are their friend, etc. Small talk whose purpose it is to promote friendliness and goodwill?
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Re: Why slanderous speech,harsh speech and idle chatter is b

Postby Babadhari » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:46 pm

MN 58 Abhaya Sutta: To Prince Abhaya on Right Speech

[quote][/[1] In the case of words that Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."quote]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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