Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

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SarathW
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Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:22 am

Too much Saddhā and you will believe in
anything. Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful.
Saddhā is one of the five mental faculties which is important in
meditation.

Page 270:

http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... dies-I.pdf

==
Do you know why and how?
Can the elaborate for me please?
:reading:

boris
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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby boris » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:48 pm

You cannot have "too much wisom" nor "too much faith" - but these faculties should be balanced with others faculties - exept mindfullnes which cannot be overdone:

Religion tends to rely upon faith alone, and philosophy on understanding alone. But the Buddha, in his teaching of the Truths, stresses the even balancing of five faculties. They are those of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and understanding. While mindfulness can never be overdone, the others, if one-sidedly overdeveloped or repressed, may distort the character, outlook, and spiritual health that resides in their even balancing. Faith alone is blind credulity and gambles against disappointment. Over-exerted energy agitates and distracts. Too much concentration tends to sleep and quietism, while understanding unsupported by the others degenerates into craftiness and cunning. When all are being properly managed, faith functions as confidence in the ability of the others to resist opposition and to reach their fulfilment in liberation from suffering.


http://nyanamoli.blogspot.com/2009/12/b ... sophy.html
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:24 pm

A classic example of too much wisdom was the wrong view held by the former vulture trainer called Ariṭṭha, who held the view that there was no fundamental difference between the soft touch of a pillow and the soft touch of a woman.

I like the way that Ajahn Chah explained it:

To get rid of the stupid defilements, you need to be clever.
To get rid of the clever defilements, you need to be stupid.

That is, to get rid of lust and anger you need to use the faculty of wisdom to contemplate their disadvantages. To get rid of pride, conceit, wrong views, you need to have enough faith in your teacher or the Dhamma to just do the practice without thinking and criticising too much.
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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby befriend » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:23 am

:anjali: Bhikkhu Pesala, I have a wrong view, but am unable to practice straight metta or vipassana at this time because the practice has brought up some emotional pains from when I was younger. could you recommend a practice I could do that would work at eradicating the wrong view. maybe a forgiveness meditation? I don't know what to do about this view. with metta, Befriend

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby binocular » Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:16 am

SarathW wrote:Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful.

In my understanding, just looking at the sentence, it means that with "too much" wisdom (or perhaps in this context a more suitable word would be "information" or "knowledge"), one will try to look for loopholes, the way people who know the laws very well sometimes look for loopholes (which tends to result in deceitful behavior).

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby vishuroshan » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:24 am

kindly note that the FAITH and SRADDHA are 2 different things. this word TOO MUCH does not suite when describing these things. coz Shraddha occures after analysing everything. when you are giving food to a Budhha statue, its not SHRADDHA. its BAKTI(Blind faith). and in other hand its because of TANHA(craving). coz you need more merits(or to cure ilness or something). Buddha statue is not the real buddha. knowing that well, people keep food(pooja) infront of the statues. they cheat themselves. Shraddha occures only through practicing SILA/SAMADHI/PRAGNA. (virtue/cncentration/wisdom).

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:46 am

"You cannot have too much faith"


Faith in Hitler?
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby boris » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:59 am

clw_uk wrote:
"You cannot have too much faith"


Faith in Hitler?

saddhindriya and Hitler?
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby boris » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:52 am

“Where is the faith faculty to be met with? Among the four Factors of Stream-entry.” (SN 48:8). “A Stream-enterer [of whom more below] has absolute confidence [pasada] in the Enlightened One, in the True Idea [the Dhamma], and in the Community, and he has the virtue beloved of Noble Ones” (SN 55:1). Four other factors of Stream-entry are frequenting True Men, hearing the True Idea, reasoned attention, and the putting into practice of ideas that are in accordance with the True Idea (SN 55:5).

“What is the faith faculty? Here a noble disciple who has faith places his faith in a Tathagata thus: ‘This Blessed One is such since he is accomplished and fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of men to be tamed, enlightened, blessed.’” (SN 48:9) “If these five faculties are absolutely perfected, they make an Accomplished One [Arahant]; if a little weaker, a Non-returner; if a little weaker still, a Once-returner; if a little weaker still, a Stream-enterer; if a little weaker still, One Mature in Faith or One Mature in the True Idea” (SN 48:12). “Those who have not known, seen, found, realized, touched with understanding, may go by faith in others that [these five faculties] when maintained in being and developed merge in the Deathless … but on knowing, seeing, finding, realizing, and touching with understanding, there is no more doubt or uncertainty that when maintained in being and developed they merge in the Deathless” (SN 48:44).
http://nyanamoli.blogspot.com/2009/12/d ... faith.html

boris wrote:You cannot have "too much wisom" nor "too much faith" - but these faculties should be balanced with others faculties -


It is easy distort meaning of words, just enough to cut sentence in the middle or just quote it out of context. ...

it is inetersting problem here, "to much wisdom" is obviously absurd idea, but when sotapanna put stress only on wisdom, and neglect for example energy, his progress will be slow. But it does not mean he is "too wise", it means his wisdom needs support of others faculties ...
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila

SarathW
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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby SarathW » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:31 pm

If you have too much faith, you believe in everything.
About two or three days ago there was news about a statue
drinking milk. It was shown even on television. Many people
went to that place and offered milk to the statue. Later on it
was found to be a fraud. If you have too much faith, you will
believe that. If you have too much wisdom, if you know too
much, you become intellectually clever. You become crafty or
maybe something like dishonest. Faith and wisdom have to be
in balance.
===============

What about Sati?
“But strong mindfulness is always necessary, …” (CMA,
VII, Guide to §§27-28, p.281)
There is no excess of mindfulness.

============
Page 63:

http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... es-III.pdf
:reading:

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby waterchan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:02 am

SarathW wrote:Too much Saddhā and you will believe in
anything. Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful.


Poetic, but clearly this is generic paññā and not the blameless paññā cultivated in the N8P. What you probably mean to say is that a person with high intelligence and low morality runs the risk of growing deceitful and manipulative.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:20 am

SarathW wrote:Too much Saddhā and you will believe in
anything. Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful.
Saddhā is one of the five mental faculties which is important in
meditation.

Page 270:

http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... dies-I.pdf

==
Do you know why and how?
Can the elaborate for me please?
:reading:

With too much saddha, one becomes too trusting, so they believe almost anything.
If you have confidence in somebody or something you can stop being critical with information. Look at the situation of cults, or groups with a common belief set. It all becomes amen this, or that, to whatever is said regardless of how true it actually is. and this goes for sceptical groups also particularly when it agrees with preconceived beliefs, preferences....

With too much Panna, one over thinks and rationalises things as being faultless when there is fault.
Instead of the lense being turned inward looking at a whole situation and its parts evenly, the lense focuses on one point and overestimates its worth so when something is deceitful it is believed to not be and then the foundation for continuing to do it is there. We do this most notably when we rationalise lying as a white lie to save someones feelings, or lying by omission when its inclusion is relevant. We focus on the positive side rather than the negative.

Hope this is useful
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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:29 am

SarathW wrote:===============

What about Sati?
“But strong mindfulness is always necessary, …” (CMA,
VII, Guide to §§27-28, p.281)
There is no excess of mindfulness.

============
Page 63:

http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... es-III.pdf
:reading:

Sati is a neutral faculty (to me, but I believe the Abhidhamma states it is always positive). it is a faculty that is needed to do anything properly.
I think of it as neutral as a law enforcement officer needs sati to do their job effectively and follow the training properly (including to kill).
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby culaavuso » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:42 am

SarathW wrote:What about Sati?
“But strong mindfulness is always necessary, …” (CMA,
VII, Guide to §§27-28, p.281)
There is no excess of mindfulness.


This seems to make sense in the context of SN 46.53's discussion of the factors of awakening. Of the seven factors of awakening, three are appropriate to develop when the mind is sluggish, three are appropriate to develop when the mind is restless, and mindfulness is always appropriate to develop.

SN 46.53: Aggi Sutta wrote:Now, monks, on any occasion when the mind is sluggish, that is the wrong time to develop calm as a factor for awakening, concentration as a factor for awakening, equanimity as a factor for awakening.
...
Now, on any occasion when the mind is restless, that is the wrong time to develop analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, persistence as a factor for awakening, rapture as a factor for awakening.
...
As for mindfulness, I tell you, that serves every purpose.


Cittasanto wrote:Sati is a neutral faculty


This seems to make sense in the context of AN 10.103, which mentions "wrong mindfulness" in opposition to the "right mindfulness" of the path.

AN 10.103: Micchatta Sutta wrote:In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.
...
In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby alan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:24 am

How is it ever possible to have too much wisdom?

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Re: Too much Paññā and you will become deceitful!

Postby chownah » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:03 am

Good question alan......maybe with too much wisdom one becomes a "wise guy". :tongue:
chownah


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