Location of the Mind?

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Location of the Mind?

Postby Babadhari » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:33 pm


The eye-basis is the element of the sensorium within the eye- ball where consciousness of
sight is generated; and the consciousness of sight connotes the power of seeing various
kinds of colours, appearances, forms and shapes.

The ear-basis is the element of the sensorium within the organ of the ear where
consciousness of sound is generated, and the consciousness of sound connotes the power
of hearing various kinds of sound.

The nose-basis is the element of the sensorium within the nose organ where consciousness
of smell is generated, and the consciousness of smell connotes the power of smelling
different kinds of odours.

The tongue-basis is the element of the sensorium upon the surface of the tongue where
consciousness of taste is generated, and the consciousness of taste connotes the power of
tasting many kinds such as sweet, sour, and so forth.

The body-basis is the element of the sensorium locating itself by pervading the whole
body within and without from head to foot, where consciousness of touch is generated,
and the consciousness of touch connotes the power of feeling or sensing physical contacts.

[b]The heart-basis a kind of very fine, bright, subtle matter within the organ of heart where
mind consciousness
, comprising sixty- nine classes of the same in number is generated


this is stated in 'A Collection of Manuals of Buddhist Teachings' by Ledi Sayadaw

does anyone know if this interpretation of the mind occurs in any other teachings?
Last edited by Babadhari on Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby boris » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:24 pm

Bhikkhus, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, bhikkhus, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on the eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness.
http://suttacentral.net/sn35.93/en

To be dependent on something and to be generated by something, it is not the same thing, so given passage is not to found is Suttas.
The heart-basis a kind of very fine, bright, subtle matter within the organ of heart where mind consciousness, comprising sixty- nine classes of the same in number is generated
Also it seems to be phantasy of the author ...
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Mkoll » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:28 pm

boris wrote:To be dependent on something and to be generated by something, it is not the same thing

Can you explain the difference as you understand it?
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:53 pm

Hi kitztack,

This interpretation is described in detail in the Commentaries. See, for example the Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purification, downloadable here: http://www.bps.lk/library_books.php).

From P447 of that PDF, XIV.60:
60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the
mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe
them. It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on the
blood, of the kind described in the treatise on mindfulness of the body (VIII.111),
inside the heart. It is assisted by the primaries with their functions of upholding,
etc.; it is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained
by life; and it serves as physical basis for the mind-element and mind-consciousness-
element, and for the states associated with them.

There is a very long footnote to that paragraph, which I won't reproduce here...

See also the discussion here: http://www.dhammatalks.net/Articles/Had ... t_Base.htm

:anjali:
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Babadhari » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:07 pm

thanks Mike

i'd found reference to it in 'Four Elements' by Pa-Auk Sayadaw' also so i guess its taught in the Burmese schools following the teachings of the Abidhamma and Vishuddimagga.
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby boris » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:44 pm

Mkoll wrote:
boris wrote:To be dependent on something and to be generated by something, it is not the same thing

Can you explain the difference as you understand it?


Well then, friend, I will make up a simile for you, for some intelligent people here understand the meaning of a statement by means of a simile. Just as two sheaves of reeds might stand leaning against each other, so too, with name-and-form as condition, consciousness comes to be; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form comes to be. With name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases come to be; with the six sense bases as condition, contact…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
“If, friend, one were to remove one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall, and if one were to remove the other sheaf, the first would fall.

http://suttacentral.net/sn12.67/en

From this simile we can see that consciousness is dependent on namarupa. But it does not mean that it is generated by namarupa. By the way - we can see from this simile that paticcasamuppada is not cause - effect relation, but that on dependence

Prof. Jefferson, in his article, tells us that 'consciousness depends upon (or 'is the sum of')* the activities of the whole intact nervous system, central and peripheral'; and the article clearly takes it for granted that an elucidation of the nervous system and its workings, if it were complete, is all that would be required for a total understanding of consciousness. 'We shall agree in the belief' says Prof. J. 'that whatever mental qualities human beings display during consciousness are derived in the end from the millions of cells in the cortex and from infinitely elaborate internuncial connections with subcortical structures.' This is certainly the generally accepted view in scientific circles.
*'To depend upon' and 'to be the sum of' are not the same thing, but Prof. J. does not notice this inconsistency.


For more details it is useful to read http://nanavira.org/index.php/letters/p ... march-1962
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby suttametta » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:53 pm

kitztack wrote:

The eye-basis is the element of the sensorium within the eye- ball where consciousness of
sight is generated; and the consciousness of sight connotes the power of seeing various
kinds of colours, appearances, forms and shapes.

The ear-basis is the element of the sensorium within the organ of the ear where
consciousness of sound is generated, and the consciousness of sound connotes the power
of hearing various kinds of sound.

The nose-basis is the element of the sensorium within the nose organ where consciousness
of smell is generated, and the consciousness of smell connotes the power of smelling
different kinds of odours.

The tongue-basis is the element of the sensorium upon the surface of the tongue where
consciousness of taste is generated, and the consciousness of taste connotes the power of
tasting many kinds such as sweet, sour, and so forth.

The body-basis is the element of the sensorium locating itself by pervading the whole
body within and without from head to foot, where consciousness of touch is generated,
and the consciousness of touch connotes the power of feeling or sensing physical contacts.

[b]The heart-basis a kind of very fine, bright, subtle matter within the organ of heart where
mind consciousness
, comprising sixty- nine classes of the same in number is generated[/b]


this is stated in 'A Collection of Manuals of Buddhist Teachings' by Ledi Sayadaw

does anyone know if this interpretation of the mind occurs in any other teachings?


This is Burmese abhidhamma. It's not in the sutras. Essence of mind has no location, is my understanding. The mind-consciousness is in the brain, judging things, etc.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Mkoll » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:06 pm

Very good, thanks boris.

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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby SarathW » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:18 pm

98. Hadayavatthu—heart-base.
According to the commentators hadayavatthu is the seat of
consciousness. Tradition says that within the cavity of the
heart there is some blood, and depending on which lies the
seat of consciousness. It was this cardiac theory that prevailed
in the Buddha’s time, and this was evidently supported
by the Upanishads.
The Buddha could have adopted this popular theory,
but He did not commit Himself.
Mr. Aung in his Compendium argues that the Buddha
was silent on this point. He did not positively assert that
the seat of consciousness was either in the heart or in the
brain. In the Dhammasaïganã the term hadayavatthu has
purposely been omitted. In the Paññhàna, instead of using
hadaya as the seat of consciousness, the Buddha has simply
stated ‘yaü råpaü nissàya’—depending on that ‘råpa’.
Mr. Aung’s opinion is that the Buddha did not want to
reject the popular theory. Nor did He advance a new theory
that brain is the seat of consciousness as is regarded by
modern scientists.

PAGE 228

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:02 am

suttametta wrote:This is Burmese abhidhamma. It's not in the sutras.



Essence of mind has no location, is my understanding. The mind-consciousness is in the brain, judging things, etc.


This seems a bit contradictory. The 'essence of mind' has no location yet the 'mind consciousness' is in the brain. Perhaps you can tell us what these two things are and how your contentions are supported in the Nikayas.
Thanks.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby suttametta » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:20 am

Ben wrote:
suttametta wrote:This is Burmese abhidhamma. It's not in the sutras.



Essence of mind has no location, is my understanding. The mind-consciousness is in the brain, judging things, etc.


This seems a bit contradictory. The 'essence of mind' has no location yet the 'mind consciousness' is in the brain. Perhaps you can tell us what these two things are and how your contentions are supported in the Nikayas.
Thanks.


Not nikayas, when we think, this is this and that is that, we are cognizing with the frontal lobe, so says science. Nirvana is bliss, I think we can agree. The "nikayas" don't give a location for that. The nikayas also don't give a location for the mind-consciousness. Locations are not important. What the nikayas do say over and over, I think you will agree, that no self is located in any sense organ.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:19 am

suttametta wrote:
Ben wrote:
suttametta wrote:This is Burmese abhidhamma. It's not in the sutras.



Essence of mind has no location, is my understanding. The mind-consciousness is in the brain, judging things, etc.


This seems a bit contradictory. The 'essence of mind' has no location yet the 'mind consciousness' is in the brain. Perhaps you can tell us what these two things are and how your contentions are supported in the Nikayas.
Thanks.


Not nikayas, when we think, this is this and that is that, we are cognizing with the frontal lobe, so says science. Nirvana is bliss, I think we can agree. The "nikayas" don't give a location for that. The nikayas also don't give a location for the mind-consciousness. Locations are not important. What the nikayas do say over and over, I think you will agree, that no self is located in any sense organ.


Actually, nibbana is not bliss. Bliss or rapture (piti) is a jhana factor and is conditioned phenomena, it is ultimately, Dukkha. This thread is about the notion of the heart base and support for it in the Teachings.
What science has to say and what your personal opinions are, are totally irrelevant.
Hence my question:
The 'essence of mind' has no location yet the 'mind consciousness' is in the brain. Perhaps you can tell us what these two things are and how your contentions are supported in the Nikayas.
Thanks.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby suttametta » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:44 am

Ben wrote:
suttametta wrote:
This seems a bit contradictory. The 'essence of mind' has no location yet the 'mind consciousness' is in the brain. Perhaps you can tell us what these two things are and how your contentions are supported in the Nikayas.
Thanks.


Not nikayas, when we think, this is this and that is that, we are cognizing with the frontal lobe, so says science. Nirvana is bliss, I think we can agree. The "nikayas" don't give a location for that. The nikayas also don't give a location for the mind-consciousness. Locations are not important. What the nikayas do say over and over, I think you will agree, that no self is located in any sense organ.


Actually, nibbana is not bliss. Bliss or rapture (piti) is a jhana factor and is conditioned phenomena, it is ultimately, Dukkha. This thread is about the notion of the heart base and support for it in the Teachings.
What science has to say and what your personal opinions are, are totally irrelevant.
Hence my question:
The 'essence of mind' has no location yet the 'mind consciousness' is in the brain. Perhaps you can tell us what these two things are and how your contentions are supported in the Nikayas.
Thanks.
[/quote]

So, Nibbana is not the highest happiness? Good luck with that... There is no support for a so-called "heart-base" in the sutras. Maybe in the abhidhamma or the commentaries. I don't follow those. Buddha was often using words in double ways. Virāga (dispassion) also means nibbana. It also means no color. Westerns love their precise diction, but you lose the poetry and the nuance with such foolish scientific pedantry. BTW, pīti is ecstasy; sukha is bliss. 1 is intense and joyous, 2 is comfortable and smooth. Would you agree Nibbana is peaceful? Of course you must... And again, no location for nibbana. It's not my opinion. If you find it's location, let me know. For that matter, mind has no location either, at least there is no mention of it in the sutras.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:45 am

Sutta metta,
I am not interested in your unsupported opinions.
If you cannot support your contentions with evidence, then please refrain from presenting it as doctrine.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby SarathW » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:07 pm

Eureka!

Very important teaching, came across for the first time. I was looking for this explanation for some time.

=================
Suppose the sixth dyad were to be made. There is
Rūpa which is the base for mind-consciousness, Mano-viññāṇa.
There is Rūpa which is not the base for mind-consciousness.
Can you point them out? There is Rūpa which is the base for
mind-consciousness, we can say it is Hadaya. What Rūpa is
not the base for mind-consciousness? That would be the other
bases.

==========
Please read page 280 - 294
http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... ies-II.pdf
:D
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby pulga » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:18 am

The mind is that in the world by which we are perceivers and conceivers of the world. It is "here" as opposed to "there": an inner base of the lived body that always finds itself in relation to external ideas, an aspect of contact (phassa) that constitutes a part of the duality of the sixth of the saḷāyatana being the resort (paṭisaraṇa) of the other five. Sometimes one comes across the notion that ideas are in the mind, but this is muddled when it comes to the Buddha's Teaching -- comparable to the notion that visible objects are inside the eye.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Pondera » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:00 pm

The unbinding of the heart is as important, if not more important, than the unbinding of the brain.

I don't believe it's merely a use of figurative speech when the phrase "heart's release" comes up over and over again in various suttas. There is also an instance of translators opting to use the less poetic word "mind" in the place of heart.

To wit:

"He reaches up to such rapture of heart, that, rapt in heart, he recollects one, two, three ... etc. ... past existences ..."

Vs. the translation.

"With his mind thus purified, steadied, ... Etc. ... He directs and inclines his mind towards the knowledge of past existences..."

That isn't verbatim - but I can supply links if requested. My point is: what if the use of "heart" is very specific? The newer translations - possibly not knowing that the heart is directly involved in past life recollection - pass over "heart" with "mind". What is the justification for that?

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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby culaavuso » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:13 pm

Pondera wrote:what if the use of "heart" is very specific? The newer translations - possibly not knowing that the heart is directly involved in past life recollection - pass over "heart" with "mind". What is the justification for that?


I believe the word in Pali that is translated sometimes as "heart" and sometimes as "mind" in these contexts is "citta". I don't believe this explicitly refers to a physical organ of the body. It's a tricky word to translate, and so different translators seem to take different approaches. Translating "citta" as "heart" tends to emphasize the emotional aspect and deemphasize the other roles played by citta. Translating "citta" as "mind" tends to emphasize its relation to thinking and deemphasize the other roles played by citta. When there's not a good choice of word in English to translate something from Pali, this kind of ambiguity arises. A similar situation occurs with translations of the word "upadana" which some translations will call "attachment", others "clinging", and others "sustenance". The various meanings cluster near the meaning of the original Pali word, but there is no perfect word available in English that conveys all the same subtleties.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:51 pm

I also have the impression is that Pali citta doesn't distinguish between the "heart" (emotional) and "mind" (thinking) aspects in the same way as English. The same goes for many modern Asian languages (e.g. the word jai in Thai). Some people talk use the term "heart-mind" to indicate this.

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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Aloka » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:18 pm

I believe the word in Pali that is translated sometimes as "heart" and sometimes as "mind" in these contexts is "citta". I don't believe this explicitly refers to a physical organ of the body.


I've looked in the ATI glossary and it says citta =mind; heart - and also in the glossaries of 3 of my Theravada books it says citta = mind or heart.

Just as an aside, I also recall a Tibetan Vajrayana teacher saying: "When we say 'heart', we mean 'mind' "

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