Location of the Mind?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
alan
Posts: 2624
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby alan » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:42 am

And why would you say that?
Nothing in the teachings validates that opinion.

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3200
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:13 am

m0rl0ck wrote:Well if you want to create transcendental mind-realms you are certainly free to do that, but this is the only universe you have to do it in and afaik in every buddhist tradition:


The suttas describe formless realms, so I don't understand your statement.

And don't forget the 6th and 7th fetters:
6. lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth (rūparāgo)
7. lust for immaterial existence, lust for rebirth in a formless realm (arūparāgo)
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3200
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:17 am

convivium wrote:So consciousness is localized in the brain according to the suttas?


I'm not atall sure that it is, but I'd have to check. My own experience is that it feels like the mind is localised in the brain, but I strongly suspect that's just because 4 of 5 sense organs are in the head, ie close to the brain - the eyes being particularly significant.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

chownah
Posts: 3019
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby chownah » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:33 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
convivium wrote:So consciousness is localized in the brain according to the suttas?


I'm not atall sure that it is, but I'd have to check. My own experience is that it feels like the mind is localised in the brain, but I strongly suspect that's just because 4 of 5 sense organs are in the head, ie close to the brain - the eyes being particularly significant.

Actually the retina and the optic nerve are parts of the brain......light striking the retina is actually light striking the brain directly.
chownah
P.S. The central nervous system is made up of the brain, spinal cord, optic nerve, and olfactory nerve if I remember correctly...maybe there is another nerve in there too, I forget. Anyway all of the parts of the central nervous system are continuous with the other structurally and the distinction between the parts of the central nervous system is mostly arbitrary and was formulated before the details of the structure and embryonic development were known. Now scientists know that embryonic development and the structure of the central nervous system indicates that all of the above mentioned parts are more realistically seen as one continuous unit with many areas of specialization. So.....the antiquated way of thinking about the central nervous system would not include the retina and optic nerve with the brain but this was arbitrarily decided and is no longer supported by current knowledge of the structure and embryonic development of the central nervous system.
chownah

Babadhari
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:23 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: lalita ghat

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Babadhari » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:47 pm


And what is it, friends, is the method of becoming high that when developed and made much of results in knowing and seeing?[6]
Here, friends a beggar focuses his mind on the perception of light. Fixing on the perception of day, as by day, so by night, as by night so by day. Thus he unblindfolds the heart and reveals a mind of surpassing brilliance.
This, friends, is that method of becoming high that when developed and made much of results in knowing and seeing.
DN33

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/bd/ ... lds.bd.htm

Are their alternative translations of the Sangiti Sutta available?
is the perception off light mentioned here the light of a purified and concentrated mind?
is this passage referring to 'knowing with the heart' and 'seeing with the mind? :juggling: '
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

culaavuso
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby culaavuso » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:10 pm

kitztack wrote:

And what is it, friends, is the method of becoming high that when developed and made much of results in knowing and seeing?[6]
Here, friends a beggar focuses his mind on the perception of light. Fixing on the perception of day, as by day, so by night, as by night so by day. Thus he unblindfolds the heart and reveals a mind of surpassing brilliance.
This, friends, is that method of becoming high that when developed and made much of results in knowing and seeing.
DN33

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/bd/ ... lds.bd.htm

Are their alternative translations of the Sangiti Sutta available?
is the perception off light mentioned here the light of a purified and concentrated mind?
is this passage referring to 'knowing with the heart' and 'seeing with the mind? :juggling: '


This is the first time I've ever seen "samādhibhāvanā" translated as a "becoming high" rather than something more conventional like "development of concentration" though it's arguably correct from a very literal perspective. Similarly, while the choice is not entirely unfounded, the choice of translating "bhikkhu" as "beggar" is rather unconventional as well. It's also rather atypical though not entirely unfounded that the first through fourth Jhanas are translated as the "First Burning" through the "Fourth Burning". That same source has a link to an Alternate translation that appears to use more conventional terms for translation. Also, consulting sutta central shows the original Pāḷi which does not appear to reference the organ of heart. This is one of the confusing things about translations of "citta" not having a clear equivalent word in english. Notably the word "hadaya" (physical heart) does not occur in the Pāḷi. The word "citta" is sometimes translated as "heart" and sometimes translated as "mind" depending on the translator. It can be helpful to try to understand what the translator is doing in such cases, as the word "hadaya" might be translated as heart and the word "mana" might be translated as mind in other cases.

DN 33: Saṅgīti Sutta wrote:Katamā cāvuso, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanapaṭilābhāya saṃvattati? Idhāvuso, bhikkhu ālokasaññaṃ manasi karoti, divāsaññaṃ adhiṭṭhāti yathā divā tathā rattiṃ, yathā rattiṃ tathā divā. Iti vivaṭena cetasā apariyonaddhena sappabhāsaṃ cittaṃ bhāveti. Ayaṃ, āvuso, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanapaṭilābhāya saṃvattati.

Four developments of concentration,[5] to wit, that which when practised and expanded, conduces to (1) pleasure in this life; (2) acquisition of intuition and insight; (3) mindfulness and well-awareness; (4) destruction of 'spiritual intoxicants.

Which are these severally? (1) is the Fourfold Jhāna. (2) is when a brother attends to the sensation of light, sustains the perception of daylight, and attends to light no less in the nighttime, and thus, withopen and unmuffled consciousness, creates a radiant luminous mind. (3) is the understanding of each feeling, or perception or thought, as they severally arise, remain present and vanish. (4) is the keeping watchover the five aggregates of grasping, as they rise and cease:--'This is material ... this is the appearance of somethng material ... this is the vanishing, and so on.'

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3200
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:11 pm

chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
convivium wrote:So consciousness is localized in the brain according to the suttas?


I'm not atall sure that it is, but I'd have to check. My own experience is that it feels like the mind is localised in the brain, but I strongly suspect that's just because 4 of 5 sense organs are in the head, ie close to the brain - the eyes being particularly significant.


Actually the retina and the optic nerve are parts of the brain......light striking the retina is actually light striking the brain directly.


No, strictly speaking everything is part of the central nervous system - including the brain.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

chownah
Posts: 3019
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby chownah » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:46 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:
Actually the retina and the optic nerve are parts of the brain......light striking the retina is actually light striking the brain directly.


No, strictly speaking everything is part of the central nervous system - including the brain.

What you are saying is correct bit the point is that there really isn't any meaningful way to distinguish between the parts except for the distinctions made by people who were ignorant of the structure and embryonic development of the central nervous system.........it makes just as much sense to call the central nervous system the brain......it is all one organ with no real way to differentiate it into parts. What separates the central nervous system from the peripheral nervous system physically a ganglion but there is no ganglion separating the optic nerve from the brain and there is no ganglion separating the spinal column from the brain and there is no ganglion separating the olfactory nerve from the great brain. Another difference between the central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system is the structure. All of the central nervous system is of one type of structure at the nerve level while all the peripheral nervous system is of another structure at the nerve level. Another difference between the central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system is the embryonic development......the central nervous system develops as a single unit meaning that the brain, optic nerve, spinal column, and the olfactory nerve all develop as a single unit with nothing to distinguish it into separate parts...it develops as a single organ.....while the peripheral nervous system develops separately.
chownah

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3200
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:34 am

chownah wrote:What you are saying is correct bit the point is that there really isn't any meaningful way to distinguish between the parts except for the distinctions made by people who were ignorant of the structure and embryonic development of the central nervous system.........it makes just as much sense to call the central nervous system the brain......it is all one organ with no real way to differentiate it into parts.
chownah


So then is the location of the mind really the central nervous system?
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

Babadhari
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:23 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: lalita ghat

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Babadhari » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:02 am

a brief but interesting article from New Scientist magazine
location-of-the-mind-remains-a-mystery
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

chownah
Posts: 3019
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby chownah » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:27 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:What you are saying is correct bit the point is that there really isn't any meaningful way to distinguish between the parts except for the distinctions made by people who were ignorant of the structure and embryonic development of the central nervous system.........it makes just as much sense to call the central nervous system the brain......it is all one organ with no real way to differentiate it into parts.
chownah


So then is the location of the mind really the central nervous system?

I am of the view that the existence of a "real world" that is "out there" is a fabrication and not really appropriate when discussing things like consciousness or the mind.....so for me it is not an issue.
However, to give a scientific sort of explanation which might help explain why you can't pin point the mind I would introduce the idea of a hologram as a metaphor a metaphor a metaphor....I am not saying the mind is a hologram...I am only using a hologram as a metaphor a metaphor a metaphor. If you have a hologram of a bunch of objects, you can not point to one place on the hologram where that object is depicted, the entire extent of the hologram depicts all of the objects depicted.........I'm thinking that the mind as an object arising in the central nervous system is a similar process in that the entire cns is involved in the arising of the mind.
Of course some people doubt whether the mind arises from the cns at all and although I allow that they may be right but do realize that all evidence seems to point out that removal of the entire cns seems to halt the arising of the mind.
chownah

User avatar
waterchan
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 7:17 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Sereitei

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby waterchan » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:24 pm

This question was asked by a retreatant at an Ajahn Brahm retreat. He replied, "You're materialist! The mind isn't in the body — the body is in the mind."
Last edited by waterchan on Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

Babadhari
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:23 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: lalita ghat

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Babadhari » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:58 pm

some interesting articles relating to new discoveries relating to the heart having its own nervous system and its relevance to emotional states of mind

http://appliedconsciousnessintl.com/thi ... in-science
http://www.mindfulmuscle.com/heart-has- ... ore-brain/
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v7/ ... 4-102.html
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

SarathW
Posts: 2738
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:50 am

Mind is not located anywhere.
It arises due to conditions.
The way I understand there should be material property (gross or subtle) for mind to arise.
Mind arises with the matter so its location depends on the occasion.
This is very similar to arising of fire.
:thinking:

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4156
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: California, USA

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:53 am

SarathW wrote:Mind is not located anywhere.
It arises due to conditions.
The way I understand there should be material property (gross or subtle) for mind to arise.
Mind arises with the matter so its location depends on the occasion.
This is very similar to arising of fire.
:thinking:

What about beings in the formless (i.e. no matter) realms?
Peace,
James

SarathW
Posts: 2738
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:09 am

Good question. :)
I thought mind should have some object.
So what is the object of the beings in Arupavacara realm?
:shrug:

culaavuso
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby culaavuso » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:17 am

SarathW wrote:So what is the object of the beings in Arupavacara realm?


The similarity between the description of the formless absorptions and the formless realm seem to suggest that the object of consciousness could be perception without form.

DN 15
DN 15: Maha-nidana Sutta wrote:"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.

chownah
Posts: 3019
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby chownah » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:46 am

Mkoll wrote:
SarathW wrote:Mind is not located anywhere.
It arises due to conditions.
The way I understand there should be material property (gross or subtle) for mind to arise.
Mind arises with the matter so its location depends on the occasion.
This is very similar to arising of fire.
:thinking:

What about beings in the formless (i.e. no matter) realms?

Without any direct experience of these things it is all conjecture and speculation.
chownah

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4156
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: California, USA

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:49 am

chownah wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
SarathW wrote:Mind is not located anywhere.
It arises due to conditions.
The way I understand there should be material property (gross or subtle) for mind to arise.
Mind arises with the matter so its location depends on the occasion.
This is very similar to arising of fire.
:thinking:

What about beings in the formless (i.e. no matter) realms?

Without any direct experience of these things it is all conjecture and speculation.
chownah

But of course!

:smile:
Peace,
James

SarathW
Posts: 2738
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:04 am

culaavuso wrote:
SarathW wrote:So what is the object of the beings in Arupavacara realm?


The similarity between the description of the formless absorptions and the formless realm seem to suggest that the object of consciousness could be perception without form.

DN 15
DN 15: Maha-nidana Sutta wrote:"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.


Thanks.
What is the diffrence between perceptions of physical form and perception of infinity space?
Aren't both perceptions?
:shrug:


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 11 guests