Location of the Mind?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:16 am

SarathW wrote:What is the diffrence between perceptions of physical form and perception of infinity space?
Aren't both perceptions?
:shrug:

I think the only one who could give a good answer based on experience to your first question is someone who has attained to that meditative state. But given the description from DN 15, infinite space is perceived as without diversity or resistance. If one senses any material form, there is both diversity and resistance in all quarters. An example of diversity is that whatever object one looks at, one could always find more diversity in it by zooming in or zooming out, i.e. zooming into a cell to find organelles, zooming into organelles to find molecules, etc.

In regards to the second question, yes. The former is diversified and the latter is not.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:31 am

SarathW wrote:What is the diffrence between perceptions of physical form and perception of infinity space?
Aren't both perceptions?
:shrug:


Yes, I think they are both perceptions - analogous to experiencing the space in a room rather than the furniture. It might be helpful to consider the 6-element formulation found in some suttas, where space and consciousness are elements as well as the usual 4 form elements.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:32 am

Mkoll wrote: The former is diversified and the latter is not.


Good observation.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:35 am

I'm probably going out on a limb here, but possibly another way of looking at location of mind is to say that while it may be centred on the brain or central nervous system, it extends as far as consciousness extends, eg as far as the eye can see.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby chownah » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:18 pm

The eye can see as far as the retina......not very far I guess.......actually doesn't even make it out of the cns in that respect.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:33 pm

chownah wrote:The eye can see as far as the retina......not very far I guess.......actually doesn't even make it out of the cns in that respect.


Sorry I don't get that. Eye-consciousness arises in dependence on the eye and form...so are you denying form?
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby chownah » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:00 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:The eye can see as far as the retina......not very far I guess.......actually doesn't even make it out of the cns in that respect.


Sorry I don't get that. Eye-consciousness arises in dependence on the eye and form...so are you denying form?

From Nyanatiloka's dictionary:
"rūpa: (1) corporeality (s. khandha 1); (2) visual object (s. āyatana); (3) fine-material (s. avacara, jhāna)."

I believe that rupa is the Pali word which gets translated to the English word form. In the context of the the six sense bases the eye is stimulated by form or to insert definition (2) from above the eye us stimulated by the visual object and specifically it is the sensitive part of the eye which is stimulated by the visual object. I'm reasonably sure that you realize that the retina is the sensitive part of the eye and that light is the thing which stimulates the retina.
One can come to the same conclusion by analyzing the other sense organs and what is stated as being their objects....for instance the ear is stimulated by sound, the nose is stimulated by odors, and the tongue is stimulated by flavors.......it is easy to see that the eye is (if it follows the pattern) stimulated by light.
I have shown two ways that form as the visual object is taken as being light and not corporeality.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby SamKR » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:03 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:The eye can see as far as the retina......not very far I guess.......actually doesn't even make it out of the cns in that respect.


Sorry I don't get that. Eye-consciousness arises in dependence on the eye and form...so are you denying form?


"Eye" is the common translation of "cakkhu". But I think by "cakkhu" the Buddha did not mean the eye-ball but he meant the vision-faculty (the seer). Also, in this context, by "rupa" (form) the Buddha meant whatever that comes in "contact" with the vision-faculty. "Rupa" does not mean an object out there, in this context; but it could be understood as the representation (or signal or image that directly comes in contact with vision-faculty - not the signal even at retina) of an inferred and projected object out there.

According to science, it is in visual cortex (in the back of the brain) where processing for visual perception occurs. The electro-biochemical signal ("rupa") has to come in contact with the visual cortex ("cakkhu") for the arising of eye-consciousness and perception. A form as an object out there (whether it is really there or not) is always a projection and our assumption. It is at the junction of the signal and the visual cortex where the "contact" occurs (along with eye-consciousness).

So, to be a little bit more accurate, I would replace chownah's sentence "The eye can see as far as the retina" with "The vision-faculty can see as far as the visual cortex". At the contact-point there is no distance between the signal, visual cortex, and the resultant consciousness.

It is just my crude attempt to stretch chownah's views a little further on the basis of science - to make the point that even on the basis of science we cannot say that we directly see an actual object out there as it is; all that a vision faculty sees is the immediate signal that it comes in contact with . It does not necessarily and accurately represent my personal understanding about rupa, contact, consciousness, etc.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:45 pm

The way I understand, there are no limits for the eye consciousness.
When you acquire supernormal powers ( Abhinna) you have unlimited vision.
===============
Supernormal powers
When once the aspirant succeeds in cultivating the Jhānas he
can, without difficulty, develop the five supernormal powers
(abhiññā) – namely, Divine Eye (dibbacakkhu), Divine Ear (dibbasota),
Reminiscence of past births (pubbe nivāsānussatiñāna),
Thought-reading (paracittavijāñāna), and various Psychic powers
(iddhi-vidha).
==================
Page425

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:45 am

SamKR wrote:Also, in this context, by "rupa" (form) the Buddha meant whatever that comes in "contact" with the vision-faculty. "Rupa" does not mean an object out there, in this context;


I'm not sure I agree, since there are suttas which differentiate between internal and external form ( internal as bodily form and external as the wind, oceans etc ).

And "contact" is described as the "meeting of the three", ie eye-organ, eye-consciousness and form.

To put it another way, I don't see the suttas denying form as something "out there". So visual perception is partly subjective, but not fully subjective.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:49 am

chownah wrote:From Nyanatiloka's dictionary:
"rūpa: (2) visual object (s. āyatana); "


Yes, visual object. ;)
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby chownah » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:23 am

Yes, the object which stimulates the retina is light......the eye does not take corporeality as a stimulus.....it takes light as it's stimulus.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:08 pm

I havent read all but I just know that S N Goenka said that mind is in every part of body www.vri.dhamma.org
dont hurt anyone in any sort of way
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Babadhari » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:35 pm

The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 107)

Herein, the mind-element has the characteristic of being the forerunner of eye-consciousness, etc.,
and cognizing visible data, and so on. Its function is to advert.
It is manifested as confrontation of visible data, and so on.
Its proximate cause is the interruption of (the continued occurrence of consciousness as) life-continuum (bhavanga).
It is associated with equanimity (upekkha) only.


can anyone explain this to me?
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:15 pm

I Think it is with you open up your Eyes >>seeing>> and building up the conscioussness too.
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:28 pm

kitztack wrote:
The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 107)

Herein, the mind-element has the characteristic of being the forerunner of eye-consciousness, etc.,
and cognizing visible data, and so on. Its function is to advert.
It is manifested as confrontation of visible data, and so on.
Its proximate cause is the interruption of (the continued occurrence of consciousness as) life-continuum (bhavanga).
It is associated with equanimity (upekkha) only.


can anyone explain this to me?

Because they arise and cease as components of what's called the "cognitive series"(citta-vithi). Vism I.57 (pg. 24) gives further details:
..when a visible datum as object comes into the eye's focus, then, after the life-continuum has arisen twice and ceased, the functional mind-element accomplishing the function of adverting arises and ceases. After that, eye-consciousness with the function of seeing; after that, resultant mind-element with the function of receiving; after that, resultant root-causeless mind-consciousness-element with the function of investigating..

Footnote 16 didn't help much on the details of those components..
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:33 pm

kitztack wrote:
The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 107)

Herein, the mind-element has the characteristic of being the forerunner of eye-consciousness, etc.,
and cognizing visible data, and so on. Its function is to advert.
It is manifested as confrontation of visible data, and so on.
Its proximate cause is the interruption of (the continued occurrence of consciousness as) life-continuum (bhavanga).
It is associated with equanimity (upekkha) only.


can anyone explain this to me?

Abhidhammic concept. Here's a reasonable explanation:
Mind in its passive and active forms
The mind occurs in both passive and active modes. The passive gives way to the active when a stimulus is received through one of the sense doors. The passive state of mind is called bhava"nga, cuti, or paa.tisandhi, according to the occasion.

Bhava"nga. The bhava"nga citta, mentioned earlier, is the primary form of mind. It flows from conception to death except when interrupted by a stimulus through one of the sense doors. When a stimulus enters, consciousness becomes active, launching into a thought process (citta viithi). Thought processes have been analyzed in great detail in the Abhidhamma.

A complete thought process, occurring through the physical sense doors, is made up of seventeen thought moments (citta kha.na). These are:

A bhava"nga that flows by in a passive state when one of the five physical sense organs comes in contact with its object (atiita bhava"nga).
A bhava"nga that vibrates for one thought moment (bhava"nga calana).
A bhava"nga that cuts off the flow (bhava"nga upaccheda).
A citta that turns towards the object through the sense door that has been stimulated (pañcadvaara-vajjana).
The appropriate sense consciousness; in the case of the eye, for example, eye consciousness (cakkhu viññaa.na).
Next a thought moment — the sampa.ticchana citta — which has the function of receiving the object.
When the object has been received another thought moment, called the santiirana citta, arises, performing the function of investigating the object.
The act (kamma) itself, especially if it was a weighty one.
9 to 15.
The object having been determined, the most important stage from an ethical standpoint follows. This stage, called javana, consists of seven consecutive thought moments all having an identical nature. It is at this stage that good or evil is done, depending on whether the cittas have wholesome or unwholesome roots. Therefore, these javana thought moments have roots and also produce new kamma.
16 and 17.
Following the seventh javana the registering stage occurs, composed of two thought moments called tadaalambane. When the second registering citta has perished, the bhava"nga follows, flowing on until interrupted by another thought process.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Location of the Mind?

Postby Babadhari » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:34 pm

thanks santa, thanks villkorkarma
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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