05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

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05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby chethinie » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:21 pm

Hi,

It is of utmost importance for us to observe the five precepts (Pancha Sila) in our journey in the path towards the stream. I understand that we should observe these Sila in the way of arya sila. Is it correct? Could anybody please explain it to me the difference of sila and arya sila?

Thank you.
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby Mkoll » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:34 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by Arya sila but I have heard the phrase "noble virtue" in the suttas being described as the Patimokkha rules that a monk is to follow and be restrained by. Do you mean the Patimokkha rules? If so, I don't see how it's possible that a layperson living in society observe the 227 Patimokkha rules.

The suttas say that a noble lay follower follows the five precepts by making the firm decision to refrain from: intentionally killing living beings, taking what is not given, sexual misconduct, lying, and the use of intoxicants/alcohol. And if you'd like to be more earnest, you can take and follow the 8 precepts which add refraining from entertainment (TV, music, shows, etc.), sleeping in a low and frugal place, and eating only between dawn and midday.
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby culaavuso » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:51 pm

There is a discussion of various levels of virtue in The Path to Peace & Freedom for the Mind by Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo. What you're calling "ariya sila" might be what is discussed there as "transcendent virtue"

Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo wrote:2. Transcendent virtue: virtue that's constant and sure, going straight to the heart, bathing the heart with its nourishment. This arises from the practice of tranquillity meditation and insight meditation. tranquillity meditation forms the cause, and insight meditation the result: discovering the true nature of the properties, aggregates (khandhas), and senses; seeing clearly the four Noble Truths, in proportion to our practice of the Path, and abandoning the first three of the Fetters
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:35 pm

Ordinary morality (sīla) as observed by ordinary persons (puthujjana), is unstable. If we break it, it can be re-established by making a fresh undertaking to observe it.

The Noble Ones (ariya puggala), at the level of Stream-entry have stable morality, which is the noble morality (ariya sīla). They are incapable of breaking it.

The Mirror of the Dhamma in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta describes the noble morality (ariya sīla).
"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby SarathW » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:56 am

:goodpost:
Hi Chethenie
This is a very good question. I tend to go with Ven. Pesala.
Defilement function in three levels. Sotapana will never break the five precepts in Transgression level.
-EG:
He may have anger, but never break the first precept. ( kill)
He may have lust but never break 3rd precepts etc.

=================================
A. Transgression (viitikkama) leading to evil bodily and verbal acts. This is checked by the practice of morality, observing the five precepts.
B. Obsession (pariyu.t.thaana) when the defilements come to the conscious level and threaten to lead to transgression if not restrained by the practice of mindfulness.
C. Latency (anusaya) where they remain as tendencies ready to surface through the impact of sensory stimuli. Security from the defilements can be obtained only by destroying the three roots — greed, hate and delusion — at the level of latency. This requires insight-wisdom (vipassanaa-paññaa), the decisive liberating factor in Buddhism.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html

========================
However average Buddhist though he has taken the five precept s/he tend to break them regularly.
Eg: Many of my Buddhist friends consume alcohol.

I have raise a similar question and see the attached.
Sotapana and five precepts:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256
:meditate:
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby chethinie » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:05 am

Hi, and thank you very much for taking time to write your comments.

Yes, I think it is what Ven. Pesala pointed out and as well as SarathW.

Ven. Rayagiriye Ariyagnana Thero in almost all his Dhamma Sermons stresses out the importance of keeping the sila that we have undertaken by turning them into arya sila (aryakantha sila). These sermons are in Sinhala Language and perhaps SarathW or anyone else would like to have a look, you could view them on youtube – search for “Rahathun wedi maga osse”.

A friend that I know gave me a very detailed reply to this question and I would like to shaire her rather long reply with you.
Reference to her answer is in the "Mahanama Sutta" in Sutta Pitaka < Anguttara Nikaya (5th book) < Attaka Nipatha < Patama Pannasaka < 3. Gahapathi Wagga < 5. Mahanama Sutta < Page 120 - 123 (PDF version's page 141 - 143) (honestly, I do not even know how to find this)

She said;
These 5 precepts are a kind of a Vow or they seem to be just a religious ritual which we accept and follow even we call them Pancha SILA. We should understand what Sila is & what this religious ritual which we do as a promise is.
“YANG SAMADANAG THANG WATHANG – SANGWARATTENA SILANG”

“Samadana” is obey or observing. “Watha” means something we practice formally as a rule. So “Yang Samadanag thang Wathang means “something we observe or obey & practice formally as a rule. Then what is Sila? “Sangwara” means discipline then “Sangwarattena Silang” means being disciplined is the Sila also can say being virtuous is Sila.

Let me explain the two facts with their differentiations through examples to understand this fact very clearly.

A person who lives by hunting or harming animals who is a Buddhist by his religion decided to Observe Sil in a Wesak Poya Day. He will not kill or harm anyone throughout that day as he is practicing and obeying the religious rules on this day. What if he happen to see a rabbit or some animal in trouble or trapped somewhere on his way in such a day like this? The hunter who like to kill or harm animals for his needs and entertainment will not take any action against that animal as he Observe Sil or as he has vowed to a religious formal procedure on that day. He will think “Oh! Today I promised not to take lives and I don’t want to harm this animal today I just leave it alone.. But if that animal stays in the same place trapped when he comes next day he will kill it and use the meat or etc… A person will not do evil actions when he Observe Sil and that is only for that exact time period he take the vow but not throughout his life time. A person who take this vow or follow this religious formal procedure of obeying to 5 percepts which we call 5 Silas can easily change his mind any time to do evil actions. For instance, some do not take alcoholic drinks during the Poya days, but subsequently they start drinking again. This also shows that ONLY saying these 5 phrases will not give Sila for us. We all know that many people just saying these 5 phrases and they break them… they believe this is just a religious rule and they even say I know that I am breaking the rules. Or he or she even says I may guide to the hell because I am breaking these religious rules… so is that the way we should discipline ourselves? DO YOU also behave like that? Do you scared to break these just because of you might go to HELL… or do you practice these by force to go to heaven? This is not the real observance of SILA..
WHAT IS REAL SILA?

Once, price Mahanama asks Lord Samma Sambuddha “My lord, what is Arya Sila?” Then our Lord Samma Sambuddha replied “Panathipatha PATIWIRATHI HOTI, Adinnadana PATIWIRATHI HOTI, Kamesu Michchachara PATIWIRATHI HOTI, Musawada PATIWIRATHI HOTI, Surameraya Majjapama Dhattana PATIWIRATHI HOTI ayang uchchathi Mahanama Ariya Sharawako Silawa hoti”

So what is the meaning of this “PATIWIRATHI HOTI”? The word “Rathi” gives the meaning of “desire / interest / hope”. And the “virathi” gives the meaning tof “get rid of desire / interest or no hope to do”

Then what was the meaning of 5 phrases which Lord Samma Sambuddha explained to Prince Mahanama?

“Panathipatha PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for killing or harming others,
Adinnadana PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest to stealing,
Kamesu Michchachara PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for sexual abuse,
Musawada PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for cheating or dishonesty,
Surameraya Majjapama Dhattana PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for intoxicating things”
Those who understand this truth, and practice the good side like this way have the real SILA and for that it is NOT mandatory to be a Buddhist or Catholic or Christian or Muslim or Hindu or anyone else in your religion or nationality as this one common universal truth to practice…

Chethinie.
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby SarathW » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:02 pm

Interesting!
Can someone give the Sutta reference?
:thinking:
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:59 pm

There are several Mahānāma Sutta on ATI.
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby SarathW » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:31 am

Thanks Bhante.
Where can I find the following:

“Panathipatha PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for killing or harming others,
Adinnadana PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest to stealing,
Kamesu Michchachara PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for sexual abuse,
Musawada PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for cheating or dishonesty,
Surameraya Majjapama Dhattana PATIWIRATHI HOTI – no interest for intoxicating things”
:reading:
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby culaavuso » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:43 am

chethinie wrote:Reference to her answer is in the "Mahanama Sutta" in Sutta Pitaka < Anguttara Nikaya (5th book) < Attaka Nipatha < Patama Pannasaka < 3. Gahapathi Wagga < 5. Mahanama Sutta < Page 120 - 123 (PDF version's page 141 - 143)


This particular sutta is AN 8.25

AN 8.25: Mahānāma Sutta wrote:Kittāvatā pana, bhante, upāsako sīlavā hotī”ti? “Yato kho, mahānāma, upāsako pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti, adinnādānā paṭivirato hoti, kāmesumicchācārā paṭivirato hoti, musāvādā paṭivirato hoti, surāme­raya­majja­pamā­daṭṭhānā paṭivirato hoti; ettāvatā kho, mahānāma, upāsako sīlavā hotī”ti.
...
In what way, Bhante, is a lay follower virtuous?”

“When, Mahānāma, a lay follower abstains from the destruction of life, from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness, in that way a lay follower is virtuous.”
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby SarathW » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:00 am

Thanks C
In what way, does this differ from five precepts?
The way I understand the Sotapana does not break five precepts due to his understanding (Sakkaya Diththi) and the faith of the Buddha.

:)
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Re: 05 precepts - sila vs arya sila

Postby culaavuso » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:13 am

SarathW wrote:In what way, does this differ from five precepts?
The way I understand the Sotapana does not break five precepts due to his understanding (Sakkaya Diththi) and the faith of the Buddha.


The five precepts are training rules "basic to the holy life" which are never broken by a stream entrant. A stream entrant is "wholly accomplished in virtue". The stream entrant has developed the sense of hiri and ottappa (shame and dread, or conscience and concern) to the point that violating the basic training rules will no longer occur.

AN 3.86
AN 3.86: Sekhin Sutta wrote:"There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules.

"With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.


AN 7.6
AN 7.6: Dhana Sutta wrote:Monks, there are these seven treasures. Which seven? The treasure of conviction, the treasure of virtue, the treasure of conscience, the treasure of concern, the treasure of listening, the treasure of generosity, the treasure of discernment.
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