Delusion

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Delusion

Postby Dhm100 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:31 am

Hello all,

I many times read in the Sutta poor health and short life span is the result of killing living beings in the past. But I can't see any source says what is the source of strong delusion? What makes someone has a very thick delusion?

My second question is,

When someone lie on his deathbed during the dying process he often sees his dead relatives or parents or best friends come to visit him, ask him to go with them, offer guidance, etc. The question is, what is the right thing to do according to Buddhism? Family is family right? Particularly for the good family but we shouldn't be attached but at the same time we were attached. They can really guide us and follow them and they can also misled us if those beings are not really our family. Back again what is the right thing to do?

Many thanks.
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Re: Delusion

Postby pilgrim » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:56 am

There is no source of Delusion because Delusion is the primary cause of our existence in samsara. All sentient beings have delusion and it is this that gives rise to Craving and Aversion. These three are the root causes of all our suffering.

It is common for a person to see visions. These are nimittas and are the caused by his bhava-kamma, indicating the destination of his next birth. As long as these nimittas are wholesome, and the dying person is not upset, I think we should not interfere. But if he is upset by his visions, you can try nudging him into the right direction by reminding him of his past meritorious actions.

See: http://www.pariyatti.org/FreeResources/ ... fault.aspx
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Re: Delusion

Postby Dhm100 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:12 am

pilgrim wrote:There is no source of Delusion because Delusion is the primary cause of our existence in samsara. All sentient beings have delusion and it is this that gives rise to Craving and Aversion. These three are the root causes of all our suffering.


Thanks for the reply.
What I meant was not free from delusion but some people are more deluded than other people, the delusion can be quite gross even lay people can tell. What differentiate the level of delusion from one to another?

pilgrim wrote:It is common for a person to see visions. These are nimittas and are the caused by his bhava-kamma, indicating the destination of his next birth. As long as these nimittas are wholesome, and the dying person is not upset, I think we should not interfere. But if he is upset by his visions, you can try nudging him into the right direction by reminding him of his past meritorious actions.

See: http://www.pariyatti.org/FreeResources/ ... fault.aspx


It can be nimittas or it can be the real relatives who still dwell in the spirit realm. Is visit by the relatives and his family member is wholesome or not? And if they ask you to go with them what is the right thing to do? Thanks for the link.
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Re: Delusion

Postby SarathW » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:50 am

Hi Dhm100
Welcome to Dhamma wheel.
It is not possible to measure the level of dilution in each person.
Taka a glass of muddy water and keep it without disturbing for few days.
Observe the glass every hour and see whether you can measure, how clean the water is.

There are billions of beings with billions of deferent levels deluded mental states.

However Buddhism taught us 12 types of individuals with deferent level of development.

:reading:
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Re: Delusion

Postby Dhm100 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:55 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Dhm100
Welcome to Dhamma wheel.
It is not possible to measure the level of dilution in each person.
Taka a glass of muddy water and keep it without disturbing for few days.
Observe the glass every hour and see whether you can measure, how clean the water is.

There are billions of beings with billions of deferent levels deluded mental states.

However Buddhism taught us 12 types of individuals with deferent level of development.

:reading:


Hi Sarath,

Thank you.
It is not possible to measure the level but what cause someone is more deluded than other person? Poor because of stealing, difficult to be trusted related to fourth precept. What about delusion, what is the cause of this effect?
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Re: Delusion

Postby pilgrim » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:20 am

Dhm100 wrote:Thank you.
It is not possible to measure the level but what cause someone is more deluded than other person? Poor because of stealing, difficult to be trusted related to fourth precept. What about delusion, what is the cause of this effect?


The less Wisdom, the more Delusion. The more Wisdom, the less Delusion. If one performs the 10 Meritorious actions, one's wisdom will increase and Delusion decrease.
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Re: Delusion

Postby Dhm100 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:44 am

pilgrim wrote:
Dhm100 wrote:Thank you.
It is not possible to measure the level but what cause someone is more deluded than other person? Poor because of stealing, difficult to be trusted related to fourth precept. What about delusion, what is the cause of this effect?


The less Wisdom, the more Delusion. The more Wisdom, the less Delusion. If one performs the 10 Meritorious actions, one's wisdom will increase and Delusion decrease.


Is perception categorized as delusion? I'm talking about people who often have distorted view that s/he views things so negatively for example and it is very difficult to view things positively or at least neutrally when most people can be quite neutral if the same thing happens to them, what is the cause of this kind of delusion?

Kamma seems to be a very complex thing, it is unpredictable. We can almost call it anything we want since we never know which one was sown and which one is ripening. One person who does good deeds in this life may be reborn in lower realms as the result of past kamma, those who do bad deeds may be reborn in heaven realms. If one does unwholesome deeds during this lifetime and he dies peacefully because of the support of the surrounding at the time of his death, it is very likely he will take rebirth in the higher realm.

If one does wholesome deeds during his lifetime and s/he meets a tragic death, will s/he be reborn in higher realm or lower realm? Is the dying moment is very important that it can 'cheat' the next destination at least for one more lifetime OR the action that he has done during his lifetime is more influential and will stirred up from the storehouse onto the surface during the moment of death?

Buddha says if we want to know what we did in the past look at our present moment and look at what we do in the present moment for future life. But at the same time Buddha says assuming and questioning about kamma can cause one goes mad. There are many things can befall upon us for example the changes of planetary system, external cause such as spirit and then kamma. Since we do not know which one is kamma and which one is not how can we say look at the present moment to understand about the past? Thank
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Re: Delusion

Postby Mkoll » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:48 am

Dhm100 wrote:What differentiate the level of delusion from one to another?

The following sutta doesn't use the word "delusion" in the English translation so I assume it's not in the Pali either. But "discerning" vs "stupid" is close enough for me.

"There is the case where a woman or man when visiting a brahman or contemplative, does not ask: 'What is skillful, venerable sir? What is unskillful? What is blameworthy? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, having been done by me, will be for my long-term harm & suffering? Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she will be stupid wherever reborn. This is the way leading to stupidity: when visiting a brahman or contemplative, not to ask: 'What is skillful?... Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?'

"But then there is the case where a woman or man when visiting a brahman or contemplative, asks: 'What is skillful, venerable sir? What is unskillful? What is blameworthy? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, having been done by me, will be for my long-term harm & suffering? Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is discerning wherever reborn. This is the way leading to discernment: when visiting a brahman or contemplative, to ask: 'What is skillful?... Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?'

-MN 135
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Re: Delusion

Postby barcsimalsi » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:16 pm

Dhm100 wrote:... I can't see any source says what is the source of strong delusion? What makes someone has a very thick delusion?

By witnessing the behavior of any just born babies, it is easy to confer that human life begins with complete ignorance. Through the 5 sense doors, one accumulates more and more experience to develop maturity. However, these experiences only represent fractions of reality therefore normal folks need the guidance of the dhamma together with the sixth sense(intellect) to resolve the whole picture.

How people’s delusion differs from each others has to do with the experiences they gained. While some may claim that past kamma determine one’s genetic of providing a higher or less intelligent brain or even deciding what type of experience one may encounters, the lack of evidence to these claims suggest that taking an agnostic position will be less fatiguing, to me at least.

Living in a world where innumerable events, cause and conditions overlapping each other, it's hard to tell how one remains more deluded than others.


Dhm100 wrote:When someone lie on his deathbed during the dying process he often sees his dead relatives or parents or best friends come to visit him, ask him to go with them, offer guidance, etc. The question is, what is the right thing to do according to Buddhism? Family is family right? Particularly for the good family but we shouldn't be attached but at the same time we were attached. They can really guide us and follow them and they can also misled us if those beings are not really our family. Back again what is the right thing to do?

Many thanks.

According to the sutta, spirits/ghosts are beings of lower realm which i presume they won’t have the right condition to overcome even their own sufferings needles to say guide others so why follow them.
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Re: Delusion

Postby santa100 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:45 pm

Dhm100 wrote: I many times read in the Sutta poor health and short life span is the result of killing living beings in the past. But I can't see any source says what is the source of strong delusion? What makes someone has a very thick delusion?

On the other hand, what makes someone has very keen insight and wisdom? Without the wisdom eye of the Buddha or His noble disciple, it's difficult to see the root cause. But according to the law of causation, these certainly aren't just happening by chance. Since we haven't developed the wisdom eye yet, we can only use induction: if one spends the night at the bar partying and drinking heavily, his next morning will be quite lousy and his mind will be quite dull and slow. But if one spends the night meditating or reading the suttas, his next morning will be quite bright and his mind will be quite sharp. From this pattern, if one has been cultivating wholesome dhammas in previous lives and in the current life, one will sure have great mental faculty. The reverse is true for those who waste their whole life on frivolous activities..

..When someone lie on his deathbed during the dying process he often sees his dead relatives or parents or best friends come to visit him, ask him to go with them, offer guidance, etc. The question is, what is the right thing to do according to Buddhism?

Why do someone see their relative before dying while others see the Buddha, and yet others see ghosts and demons, etc..? What one is doing right in the here and now determines what s/he will see before their death: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Delusion

Postby befriend » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:52 pm

hatred is caused by focusing on negative things, lust is caused by focusing on beautiful things, and delusion is caused from spacing out. correct me if im wrong but I know that out of the 3 personality types one predominantly falls into deluded people are more prone to walk into a room and don't know what to do or say, and get spacey and are also easily influenced by others. if your referring to schizophrenics, psychosis and individuals with strong delusion, it can be caused from trauma.
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Re: Delusion

Postby culaavuso » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:09 pm

befriend wrote:hatred is caused by focusing on negative things, lust is caused by focusing on beautiful things


This sounds quite similar to SN 46.51
SN 46.51: Ahara Sutta wrote:"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen? There is the theme of beauty. To foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen ill will, or for the growth & increase of ill will once it has arisen? There is the theme of resistance. To foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the arising of unarisen ill will, or for the growth & increase of ill will once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sloth & drowsiness, or for the growth & increase of sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen? There are boredom, weariness, yawning, drowsiness after a meal, & sluggishness of awareness. To foster inappropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen sloth & drowsiness, or for the growth & increase of sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen restlessness & anxiety, or for the growth & increase of restlessness & anxiety once it has arisen? There is non-stillness of awareness. To foster inappropriate attention to that: This is the food for the arising of unarisen restlessness & anxiety, or for the growth & increase of restlessness & anxiety once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen uncertainty, or for the growth & increase of uncertainty once it has arisen? There are phenomena that act as a foothold for uncertainty. To foster inappropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen uncertainty, or for the growth & increase of uncertainty once it has arisen.
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Re: Delusion

Postby Dhm100 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:13 am

barcsimalsi wrote:By witnessing the behavior of any just born babies, it is easy to confer that human life begins with complete ignorance. Through the 5 sense doors, one accumulates more and more experience to develop maturity. However, these experiences only represent fractions of reality therefore normal folks need the guidance of the dhamma together with the sixth sense(intellect) to resolve the whole picture.

How people’s delusion differs from each others has to do with the experiences they gained. While some may claim that past kamma determine one’s genetic of providing a higher or less intelligent brain or even deciding what type of experience one may encounters, the lack of evidence to these claims suggest that taking an agnostic position will be less fatiguing, to me at least.

Living in a world where innumerable events, cause and conditions overlapping each other, it's hard to tell how one remains more deluded than others.


There is a case when you feel that you have made a progress in the practice then suddenly you are overwhelmed by doubt and confusion. They hinder your practice, if not stop the practice. After a while they disappear. You make efforts again and it comes back again. So you got deluded not because you have no experience at all but you just confuse, even for day to day routine chanting or meditation practice for example. Of course you are not suggesting to stop the practice and take agnostic position, do you?


barcsimalsi wrote:According to the sutta, spirits/ghosts are beings of lower realm which i presume they won’t have the right condition to overcome even their own sufferings needles to say guide others so why follow them.


They may be a wandering spirit which is not our family BUT they could be our family OR it is also possible for our loved ones take rebirth in heavenly realms as a deva and visit the dying person. As mentioned previously above from S.N. Goenka link, it could be a nimitta which is just a sign but it could also be they are the real family members who really want to help us.
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Re: Delusion

Postby barcsimalsi » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:02 am

Dhm100 wrote:There is a case when you feel that you have made a progress in the practice then suddenly you are overwhelmed by doubt and confusion. They hinder your practice, if not stop the practice. After a while they disappear. You make efforts again and it comes back again. So you got deluded not because you have no experience at all but you just confuse, even for day to day routine chanting or meditation practice for example. Of course you are not suggesting to stop the practice and take agnostic position, do you?

Of course not, i was referring to the belief of kammic result.
Regarding the practice, i prefer a mix of diligent effort with some dose of skepticism to avoid over-estimating my own progress.


Dhm100 wrote:They may be a wandering spirit which is not our family BUT they could be our family OR it is also possible for our loved ones take rebirth in heavenly realms as a deva and visit the dying person. As mentioned previously above from S.N. Goenka link, it could be a nimitta which is just a sign but it could also be they are the real family members who really want to help us.

I never encounter supernatural stuff so please excuse me for skipping further comment about this. :toilet:
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Re: Delusion

Postby Dhm100 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:38 am

barcsimalsi wrote:
Dhm100 wrote:There is a case when you feel that you have made a progress in the practice then suddenly you are overwhelmed by doubt and confusion. They hinder your practice, if not stop the practice. After a while they disappear. You make efforts again and it comes back again. So you got deluded not because you have no experience at all but you just confuse, even for day to day routine chanting or meditation practice for example. Of course you are not suggesting to stop the practice and take agnostic position, do you?

Of course not, i was referring to the belief of kammic result.
Regarding the practice, i prefer a mix of diligent effort with some dose of skepticism to avoid over-estimating my own progress.


But it happens all the time, it seems to be a kind of pattern. Just in case, someone has similar experience.
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Re: Delusion

Postby Dhm100 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:47 am

befriend wrote:hatred is caused by focusing on negative things, lust is caused by focusing on beautiful things, and delusion is caused from spacing out. correct me if im wrong but I know that out of the 3 personality types one predominantly falls into deluded people are more prone to walk into a room and don't know what to do or say, and get spacey and are also easily influenced by others. if your referring to schizophrenics, psychosis and individuals with strong delusion, it can be caused from trauma.


Yes exactly including depressed people which can be caused also by dwelling in negativity most of the time. But both negative and positive thinking are both delusion in the deepest sense but only negativity that can cause mental illness.

If a person being kept in a secluded small room most of the time and no contact with other human, most people will go mad. Does anyone know what is the spiritual explanation about this?
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Re: Delusion

Postby cooran » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:53 am

This might be of interest:

Mental Illness according to Theravada Buddhism
http://btmar.org/files/pdf/Mental-Illness-Paper.pdf

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Re: Delusion

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:36 am

Dhm100 wrote:But it happens all the time, it seems to be a kind of pattern. Just in case, someone has similar experience.

Sure the pattern ... and the problem


Dhm100 wrote:If a person being kept in a secluded small room most of the time and no contact with other human, most people will go mad. Does anyone know what is the spiritual explanation about this?

The dwelling is just the half part of the problem, the other half goes to how one relates to them.
…"The thought occurred to me: 'When brahmans or contemplatives who are drooling idiots, resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings, it's the fault of their drooling idiocy that they give rise to unskillful fear & terror. But it's not the case that I am a drooling idiot, when I resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. I am consummate in discernment. I am one of those noble ones who are consummate in discernment when they resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings.' Seeing in myself this consummate discernment, I felt even more undaunted about staying in the wilderness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Delusion

Postby culaavuso » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:24 pm

Dhm100 wrote:If a person being kept in a secluded small room most of the time and no contact with other human, most people will go mad. Does anyone know what is the spiritual explanation about this?


Greed for enjoyable feelings as a result of pleasure, praise, reputation, gain.
Aversion to uncomfortable feelings as a result of pain, blame, disrepute, loss.
Restlessness from focusing on wishes for pleasurable or painful feeling as opposed to neutral feelings.
Insufficient equanimity, endurance, contentment, renunciation, and patience to skillfully handle whatever forces may arise from greed, aversion, and restlessness.

AN 8.6
AN 8.6: Lokavipatti Sutta wrote:He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. He welcomes the arisen status and rebels against the arisen disgrace. He welcomes the arisen praise and rebels against the arisen censure. He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.


This is somewhat related to the psychological concept of Locus of Control

Also relevant is MN 122
MN 122: Maha-suññata Sutta wrote:Ananda, a monk does not shine if he delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; if he delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group. Indeed, Ananda, it is impossible that a monk who delights in company, enjoys company, is committed to delighting in company; who delights in a group, enjoys a group, rejoices in a group, will obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening. But it is possible that a monk who lives alone, withdrawn from the group, can expect to obtain at will — without difficulty, without trouble — the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of self-awakening.
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