SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

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SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

(a) Phenomena arising & passing in conscious experience
1
14%
(b) Mental qualities, both skilful & unskilful
2
29%
(c) Mental qualities, exclusively skilful, path factors
0
No votes
(d) Ultimate truth, such as insight of four noble truths, three characteristics & relinking rebirth
0
No votes
(e) A & B above
3
43%
(f) C & D above
1
14%
(g) All of the above
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 7

SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby EndlessStream » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:34 am

Hello people. I am reading the Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation of the Samudaya Sutta, translated as:

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo. Manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo

From the origination of attention is the origination of mental qualities. [2] From the cessation of attention is the subsiding of mental qualities.

[2] Mental qualities = dhammas. SN 46.51 discusses the ways in which inappropriate attention feeds such unskillful mental qualities as the hindrances, whereas appropriate attention feeds such skillful mental qualities as the factors for awakening. Dhammas can also mean "phenomena," "events," or "actions."

I have read Dhamma can also mean "skilful qualities", "path practise", "path factors", "ultimate truth" & "path fruit", including Nibbana.

What do us dhamma people think the word 'dhamma' refers to here? Thank you
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:19 pm

EndlessStream wrote:Hello people. I am reading the Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation of the Samudaya Sutta, translated as:

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo. Manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo

From the origination of attention is the origination of mental qualities. [2] From the cessation of attention is the subsiding of mental qualities.

[2] Mental qualities = dhammas. SN 46.51 discusses the ways in which inappropriate attention feeds such unskillful mental qualities as the hindrances, whereas appropriate attention feeds such skillful mental qualities as the factors for awakening. Dhammas can also mean "phenomena," "events," or "actions."

I have read Dhamma can also mean "skilful qualities", "path practise", "path factors", "ultimate truth" & "path fruit", including Nibbana.

What do us dhamma people think the word 'dhamma' refers to here? Thank you


"Dhamma" seems to have many meanings in the suttas, but here I think it means skillful and unskillfull mental qualities, so I chose (b). Actually (b) looks like a subset of (a), so maybe I should have chosen (e)? :thinking:
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby santa100 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:09 pm

Ven. Bodhi's footnote for SN 47.42:
Manasikarasamudaya dhammanam samudayo. Spk: The phenomena of the enlightenment factors originate through careful attention; the phenomena of the hindrances through careless attention. Cp. AN V 107,6-7: Manasikarasambhava sabbe dhamma, phassasamudaya sabbe dhamma; “All phenomena come into being through attention; all phenomena originate from contact.”

So it could include everything except (c), and as a result, not (f) and (g).
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:03 pm

I think I agree with Spk in this case, given the satipatthana context.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby pulga » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:10 pm

Is it correct to say that phenomena rise and pass in consciousness? Aren't the two mutually contingent upon each other?
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:18 pm

Actually, I associate Spk's comment more specifically with anapanasati, which I don't think is the most appropriate fit for what is, here I think, a broader satipatthana statement.

So consider MN 2:

Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and see. Who knows and sees what? Wise attention and unwise attention. When one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned.

“Bhikkhus, there are taints that should be abandoned by seeing. There are taints that should be abandoned by restraining. There are taints that should be abandoned by using. There are taints that should be abandoned by enduring. There are taints that should be abandoned by avoiding. There are taints that should be abandoned by removing. There are taints that should be abandoned by developing.


I think asavas, in this sense, are a function of the results of attention; so, dhamma is here either asavas or their counters, which covers a slightly more encompassing realm of practice than the "hindrances-awakening factors" obversion.

So that's (b) I think, but I'd want to pinpoint the asavas as the specific reference.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby EndlessStream » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:17 am

daverupa wrote:I think I agree with Spk in this case, given the satipatthana context.

If the satipatthana context includes continuously contemplating the five hindrances (as dhammas), can the mind subdue (abandon) greed & distress with reference to the world or realise the deathless if the five hindrances remain present?

If the deathless is realised by remaining focused on the five hindrances, why would the five hindrances be called 'hindrances' & why would the Buddha characterise them (in SN 46.55) as causing blindness?
He remains focused on dhammas in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. For him, remaining focused on dhammas in & of themselves, dhammas are comprehended. From the comprehension of dhammas, the deathless is realized.

Pariñña Sutta: Comprehension
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby daverupa » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:42 pm

EndlessStream wrote:If the deathless is realised by remaining focused on the five hindrances...


Exactly what anapanasati & jhana are about, but not what satipatthana is always necessarily about. There are other 'satipatthanas' that address, say, those asavas to be endured.

It's all satipatthana, but while anapanasati refines it into jhana for the purposes of realizing the deathless, satipatthana is otherwise a mode of living that isn't always engaged in that specific way. So, I'm taking the passage, here, to be a broader statement, encompassing a bit more.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 47.42 Samudaya Sutta: What is 'dhamma' here?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:23 am

(e) is winning so did I get it wrong? ;)
Well, oi dunno...
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