five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

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chethinie
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five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby chethinie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:01 pm

Hi,
Just wondering why the 05th precept - Refraining from self-intoxication through alcohol or drugs are not listed in the ten demeritourious deeds...
What do you think?
Chethinie

Ten Demeritorious Deeds (Dasa Akusala Kamma)

Through Bodily Action:
1. Panatipata - Killing
2. Adinnadana - Stealing
3. Kamesumicchacara - Sexual Misconduct
Through Verbal Speech:
4. Musavada - Lying
5. Pisunavaca - Slandering
6. Phaarusavaca - Harsh Speech
7. Samphappalapa - Frivolous Talk
Through Mind Thought:
8. Abhijjha - Coverousness
9. Vjapada - Ill-Will (hatred)
10. Micchaditthi - Wrong Views

Anguttara Nikaya X.176 : Cunda Kammaraputta Sutta
(To Cunda the Silversmith

Babadhari
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Babadhari » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:18 pm

intoxicants have caused me to do all ten demeritous deeds in the past! the drinking of alcohol itself is not the bad deed, it is the cause of the bad action in my opinion
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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waterchan
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby waterchan » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:30 pm

The fifth precept is a bit different from the other four. It is not a gross demeritorious deed in itself, for consumption of intoxicants is not directly harmful to others. However it does provide the potential for heedlessness, negligence, and the potential to commit any of the ten demeritorious deeds, which is why it is a precept. Intoxication disrupts mindfulness, stillness, and hinders one's dhamma practice, despite many deluded claims to the contrary.

Note that according to the Vinaya, the fifth precept was the last of the five precepts to come into effect, after a monk received alcohol as alms, consumed it and consequently collapsed on the ground. He had to be carried back to his monastery and missed a dhamma talk by the Buddha. From that point on, the Buddha forbade his monks to consume or knowingly accept alcohol.

Ajahn Brahm has said that if one finds it hard to keep five precepts, keep only two: to not harm others and to not harm oneself. The first four precepts are about not harming others and the fifth one is to not harm yourself.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

chownah
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby chownah » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:54 pm

There are ten demeritorious deeds because eleven is just a really weird number and they couldn't figure out how to make it twelve so they figured that having a beer on a hot summer day was probably the least demeritorious of any of the eleven so they axed it to give a nice round number of ten so you could associate one demeritorious deed with each of your fingers.....or toes.....
chownah

Babadhari
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Babadhari » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:10 pm

Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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waterchan
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby waterchan » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:04 pm

quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

culaavuso
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby culaavuso » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:27 pm



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Cittasanto
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:31 pm

The fifth precept is about protecting oneself from heedlessness, it isn't an unwholesome action in the same way the others are.
The other acts are unwholesome regardless of reason, however, intoxicants can be useful in certain circumstances such as when it is used as a preservative ingredient, pain relief, or as a medicine. These "neutral" uses are also allowable for mendicants in proper context/amounts.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

chethinie
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby chethinie » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:24 am

Hello all,

Thank you very much for the very insightful feedback. Personally I do not consume alcohol nor do any of my family members. It’s just that I’m trying to understand everything clearly and as such my questions on this. Thank you Culaavuso for the detailed references. It’s now clear that the Lord Buddha did instruct us to abstain from intoxicants. :smile:

Could anyone please also give me the reference to the sutta or likewise where the Buddha mentioned us to follow the five precepts please?

Thanks a million in advance!

Chethinie

santa100
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby santa100 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:50 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:00 pm

There is also the index entries here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... l#precepts
although the entries under protection are also useful, as are the entries in Sila here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#sila


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Anagarika
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Anagarika » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:01 pm


culaavuso
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby culaavuso » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:36 pm



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lyndon taylor
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:11 pm

Research done on Seventh Day Adventists that neither drink, smoke, or in 1/2 the cases, eat meat show them to live something like 6 years longer than meat eating SDAs, and healthier in almost every extent than the general population. As none of them drink there's really no way to compare that data, but I have heard the same thing, all the so called positive benefits of wine can be had from non fermented grape juice.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Anagarika
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Anagarika » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:13 pm


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waterchan
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby waterchan » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:29 pm

quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

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andyebarnes67
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby andyebarnes67 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:55 pm

Metta
:meditate:
Andy Barnes
My comments are by nature, subjective interpretations from my mind. As such, they are never wrong, They are as they are. They are never right, They are as they are.

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Anagarika
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Anagarika » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:26 am

I saw that there is another theme running here on DW, wherein this article from Bhikkhu Bodhi was posted: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_36.html Ven. Bodhi makes the case that the Path calls for abstinence from alcohol. His arguments resonate with me, as it seems all too easy to look for reasons to qualify the Fifth Precept, or look for a loophole within the suttas.

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waterchan
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby waterchan » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:42 am

quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)

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Anagarika
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Re: five precepts and ten Demeritorious Deeds

Postby Anagarika » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:45 am



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