mechanism of rebirth

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mechanism of rebirth

Postby rolling_boulder » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:49 am

Hello, :candle:

Disregarding controversy, what do the suttas say about the actual mechanism of rebirth?

My limited understanding of it is that an "intention", so to speak, the final action of the living mind, goes on after death to continue a stream of effects becoming causes and so on.

The question; does the karma stream somehow re-materialize into another consciousness? It seems like many conditions must arise for birth, so would new birth not require multiple karma streams? Would not the everyday events of one's life, and the karma streams therein, also be contributing to future "births" as well? Hopefully I am not misinterpreting. Lacking knowledge enough to answer this question for me greatly strengthens my Hindrance of doubt. I simply don't understand how it's supposed to work.


Please avoid debate in this thread, I know it's a touchy subject. But for the sake of collection of the Dhamma, fill this thread with Suttas!
(There is a "great rebirth debate" thread wherein the topic of rebirth may be debated in its intricacies.)


Thank you very kindly for taking the time to answer what must seem an obvious question.

May this thread serve as a beginners guide,
With loving kindness to all beings.
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby cooran » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:58 am

Hello rolling_boulder, all,

Here are some Suttas and articles on Rebirth:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#rebirth


With metta,
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:19 am

Off topic msgs will be removed without comment.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:34 am

This will address some of your questions and no doubt raising others: http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... dhabba.pdf
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:58 am


"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."

Consciousness
"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned?

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.

"This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby boris » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:41 am

Bhikkhus, I do not see any other order of living beings so diversified as those in the animal realm. Even those beings in the animal realm have been diversified by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than those beings in the animal realm.
“Therefore, bhikkhus, one should often reflect upon one’s own mind thus: ‘For a long time this mind has been defiled by lust, hatred, and delusion.’ Through the defilements of the mind beings are defiled; with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified.
“Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces.

http://suttacentral.net/sn22.100/en

"And what is the result of sensuality? One who wants sensuality produces a corresponding state of existence, on the side of merit or demerit. This is called the result of sensuality. (...)

"And what is the result of feeling? One who feels a feeling produces a corresponding state of existence, on the side of merit or demerit. This is called the result of feeling. (...)

"And what is the result of fermentations? One who is immersed in ignorance produces a corresponding state of existence, on the side of merit or demerit. This is called the result of fermentations. (...)

And what is the result of action? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma. (...)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It looks like habitual actions, delight in specific perceptions and feelings and pleasures has a power of determining a new set of 5 holding aggregates. There is no description neither explanation, how rebirth comes about, it is matter of saddha. However familiarity with Rupert Seldrake theory may at least provide some working theory.

In the hypothesis of formative causation, discussed in detail in my books A New Science of Life and The Presence of the Past, I propose that memory is inherent in nature. Most of the so-called laws of nature are more like habits.

http://www.sheldrake.org/research/morph ... troduction

This theory operates rather on level of spices, but we may assume that in fact each individual has his own field provided by the mind where an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, creates the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features …

*
This is only suggestion, it does not mean that I do hold such an ideas, in fact I do not hold any ideas about rebirth, I only believe in it. :smile:
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby rolling_boulder » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:55 am

In poring through the texts linked before me,

I discovered this long sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.038.than.html

It would be a crime for me not to add it to this thread. :candle:
With loving kindness to all beings.
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby chownah » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:01 am

rolling_boulder wrote:In poring through the texts linked before me,

I discovered this long sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.038.than.html

It would be a crime for me not to add it to this thread. :candle:

So....is your question answered?
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Re: mechanism of rebirth

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:18 am

MN9 is worth a read - see particularly the sections on Ageing and Death, Birth and Being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
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