Disrobe or ... ?

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Disrobe or ... ?

Postby steve19800 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:22 am

Hi Bhante/ all,

I just read a spiritual biography of Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta Thera. There is a chapter called: Spiritual partner.
In this chapter, a formless being visited Ajahn Mun during his meditation, expressing her disappointment. They, in the past, has made a vow to achieve Buddhahood together, the formless being worry that he might leave her alone during their spiritual journey and therefore she has not taken rebirth into 'proper' realm.

They were talking very long during the night, but the good thing is, the formless being was willing to take Ajahn Mun's advice, that is, not to cling to the past and follow his advice to achieve a desirable good rebirth. I'll try to keep it short.

But the formless being has to follow Ajahn Mun's advice anyway because whatever happened they were both in the different realm therefore they can't be together.

And then the question came across to my mind, what if they are both are in the human realm therefore can be together again or when our partner does not want to listen to us but expect us for example, as a monk to be together again with her (disrobe). Or for the extreme example, if the monk doesn't want to disrobe, she will commit suicide. What would be the best / right thing to do? Is this one of the obstacle that a monk has to give up?

Can Bhante or Dhamma friend share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby James the Giant » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:46 am

My advice on this matter is to stop wasting your time thinking about it. As hypothetical questions go, this one is up there with the most abstruse and wildly unlikely.
A clingy spiritual ex in spirit form is NOT going to contact you to complain when you are an awesome meditation master. That's pretty much a guarantee.

Huh, but if your actual real life ex-partner demands you come back?
Too bad, you're in robes. Why would you go back to her? You've given all that up.
Becoming a monk... a big part of it is about getting away from all that stuff.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby Kusala » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:57 am

steve19800 wrote:Hi Bhante/ all,

I just read a spiritual biography of Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta Thera. There is a chapter called: Spiritual partner.
In this chapter, a formless being visited Ajahn Mun during his meditation, expressing her disappointment. They, in the past, has made a vow to achieve Buddhahood together, the formless being worry that he might leave her alone during their spiritual journey and therefore she has not taken rebirth into 'proper' realm.

They were talking very long during the night, but the good thing is, the formless being was willing to take Ajahn Mun's advice, that is, not to cling to the past and follow his advice to achieve a desirable good rebirth. I'll try to keep it short.

But the formless being has to follow Ajahn Mun's advice anyway because whatever happened they were both in the different realm therefore they can't be together.

And then the question came across to my mind, what if they are both are in the human realm therefore can be together again or when our partner does not want to listen to us but expect us for example, as a monk to be together again with her (disrobe). Or for the extreme example, if the monk doesn't want to disrobe, she will commit suicide. What would be the best / right thing to do? Is this one of the obstacle that a monk has to give up?

Can Bhante or Dhamma friend share your thoughts? Thanks in advance.


I just posted this Dhamma talk in another thread...

Making The Dhamma Your Own

"A recurring theme in the teachings of the Forrest Ajahns is that you have to make the Dhamma your own. In other words, you can read about it, you can hear about it, think about it, if that's as far as you go, that's still the Buddha's Dhamma -- somebody else's Dhamma. You can practice it a little bit, but unless you really push yourself you don't really know how true that Dhamma is and it's not really your own...

I noticed a lot of people who get interested in the Pali Cannon, but if they don't really practice it or if they practice just in their ease and comfort, their interest begins to wane. They start getting cynical about the whole thing, but it's the people who tested the teachings, those are the ones who maintain their confidence, maintain their conviction, about what the Buddha taught is really true. That's because they've seen these qualities arise within them, they've seen that they can actually develop them in ways they wouldn't expect it...Your mind becomes Dhamma, you've made it your own. And that's not by imposing your idea about the Dhamma on it, it means you basically make yourself in the Dhamma...

there's a nice passage in the cannon where someone says even if the whole world rose up against the Buddha, he'd still side with the Buddha, from what he had seen in his own practice. The Dhamma gets bigger in your heart, the world gets smaller, becomes less and less of an issue because you realize the issues outside are nothing compared to the issues inside and you start straightening out these issues inside. The battle is won."


P.S. you can listen to the whole Dhamma talk here ------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDRyAnt6Ues
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby Sokehi » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:02 pm

I've stopped reading the "spiritual biography". A meditation master in the 20th century meeting the Buddha (knock, knock, parinibanna?). Count me out.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby Jayantha-NJ » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:10 am

I was just about to read Ajahn Man/Mun's biography now that im done with forest recollections... what is the general consensus of that book, should I bother?


also I agree with James the Giant... this scenario is crazy.

I'll give you a real one.. my wife died 8 years ago, I plan to become a monk. If on the crazy wild off chance I become awakened in this lifetime, there will be no chance of us "seeing" each other again... and I'm perfectly fine with that. As I have progressed in the practice and started to eradicate marital love and desire, i've come to view my wife as a fellow traveler in samsara who deserves my metta, not my attachment. I wish her well in her journey and perhaps I may be able to help her move forward in the dhamma in her future life, who knows, but I have lessened my attachments to all things in this world, and I don't selfishly "need" her in some future life. I can only save myself and I plan to continue the business of that and ramp it up as a monastic soon enough.
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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby JeffR » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:01 am

Jayantha-NJ wrote:I was just about to read Ajahn Man/Mun's biography now that im done with forest recollections... what is the general consensus of that book, should I bother?


I'm about a third of the way through it (set it down for awhile to read a book my Ajahn has given me and recommends I read). Great read and inspiration.

As for the OP: I can't provide an answer better than that of James our Giant.

-Jeff
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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby kmath » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:42 am

James the Giant wrote:My advice on this matter is to stop wasting your time thinking about it. As hypothetical questions go, this one is up there with the most abstruse and wildly unlikely.
A clingy spiritual ex in spirit form is NOT going to contact you to complain when you are an awesome meditation master. That's pretty much a guarantee.



:clap:
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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby manas » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:27 am

Sokehi wrote:I've stopped reading the "spiritual biography". A meditation master in the 20th century meeting the Buddha (knock, knock, parinibanna?). Count me out.


Fortunately he did not meet the Buddha on the road - it happened while sitting in meditation :tongue:
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Re: Disrobe or ... ?

Postby Unrul3r » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:04 pm

Disrobe or...
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion Ven. Saṅgāmaji had arrived in Sāvatthī to see the Blessed One. His former wife heard, "Master Saṅgāmaji, they say, has arrived in Sāvatthī." Taking her small child, she went to Jeta's Grove. On that occasion Ven. Saṅgāmaji was sitting at the root of a tree for the day's abiding. His former wife went to him and, on arrival, said to him, "Look after me, contemplative — (a woman) with a little son." When this was said, Ven. Saṅgāmaji remained silent. A second time... A third time, his former wife said to him, "Look after me, contemplative — (a woman) with a little son." A third time, Ven. Saṅgāmaji remained silent.

Then his former wife, taking the baby and leaving him in front of Ven. Saṅgāmaji, went away, saying, "That's your son, contemplative. Look after him."

Then Ven. Saṅgāmaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him. His wife, after going not far away, was looking back and saw Ven. Saṅgāmaji neither looking at the child nor speaking to him. On seeing this, the thought occurred to her, "The contemplative doesn't even care about his son." Returning from there and taking the child, she left.

The Blessed One — with his divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — saw Ven. Saṅgāmaji's former wife misbehaving in that way.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
At her coming,
he didn't delight;
at her leaving,
he didn't grieve.
A victor in battle, freed from the tie:
He's what I call a brahman.

"Saṅgāmaji Sutta: Saṅgāmaji" (Ud 1.8), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
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