Kamma after the Buddha's awakening (or any other being)

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Kamma after the Buddha's awakening (or any other being)

Postby Kasina » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:33 pm

So, I had been reading Ven. Thanissaro's "Wings to Awakening" anthology, and in the section on Kamma, there is one thing I have difficulty wrapping my mind around;

"The truth of the Buddha's understanding of the processes of kamma — as informed by this/that conditionality, dependent co-arising, and the four noble truths — was proven by the knowledge of Unbinding that followed immediately on his mastery of the fourth type of kamma. He found that when skillfulness is intentionally brought to a point of full consummation, as expressed in the direct awareness of this/that conditionality, it leads to a state of non-action, or non-fashioning, that forms the threshold to a level of consciousness in which all experience of the cosmos has fallen away. When one's experience of the cosmos resumes after the experience of Awakening, one sees clearly that it is composed entirely of the results of old kamma; with no new kamma being added to the process, all experience of the cosmos will eventually run out — or, in the words of the texts [§225], "will grow cold right here." This discovery proved the basic premise that kamma not only plays a role in shaping experience of the cosmos, it plays the primary role. If this were not so, then even when kamma was ended there would still remain the types of experience that came from other sources. But because no experience of the cosmos remained when all present kamma disbanded, and none would resume after all old kamma ran out, kamma would have to be the necessary factor accounting for all such experience. This fact implies that even the limiting factors that one encounters in terms of sights, sounds, etc., are actually the fruit of past kamma in thought, word, and deed — committed not only in this, but also in many preceding lifetimes. Thus, even though the Buddha's development of the fourth type of kamma focused on the present moment, the resulting Awakening gave insights that encompassed not only the present but also all of time."

What I understand this to mean is that, after his awakening, all his further actions were composed or rather caused by his old Kamma. However, how was it so that he could still be acting in the world, yet not creating any new Kamma? Certainly his actions had very big effects during his period of teaching. Was it simply the fact that he was, somehow, acting yet remaining unattached to his actions? This would be my best understanding of how it was so, but I feel like I'm missing something here...

Looking forward to some good discussion, and some better understanding.

:reading: Relevant links:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part1.html#part1-b

Metta, J.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

"Hope... is irrational."
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Re: Kamma after the Buddha's awakening (or any other being)

Postby culaavuso » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:52 pm

An arahant's kamma is the fourth type of kamma:

MN 57: Kukkuravatika Sutta wrote:What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening.


AN 4.235: Ariyamagga Sutta wrote:And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.


There is still a sort of action happening since that is the meaning of kamma.

There is, however, no longer any craving present which results in the end of becoming. This is why the arahant is no longer a "being".

AN 3.76: Bhava Sutta wrote:Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming.


SN 23.2: Satta Sutta wrote:I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'


MN 9: Sammaditthi Sutta wrote:Now, when a disciple of the noble ones discerns fabrication, the origination of fabrication, the cessation of fabrication, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of fabrication in this way, when — having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma.
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Re: Kamma after the Buddha's awakening (or any other being)

Postby SarathW » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:09 pm

17. Kiriya or Kriyà, literally, means action.

Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action.
Kamma is causally effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective.
Good deeds of Buddhas and Arahants are called Kiriya
because Kamma is not accumulated by them as they have
gone beyond both good and evil.
In Abhidhamma Vipàka and Kiriya are collectively
called Abyàkata (Indeterminate) that which does not man
ifest itself in the way of an effect. The former is Abyàkata,
because it is an effect in itself, the latter, because it does
not produce an effect.

Page 37

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
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Re: Kamma after the Buddha's awakening (or any other being)

Postby Kasina » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:29 pm

There is, however, no longer any craving present which results in the end of becoming. This is why the arahant is no longer a "being".

AN 3.76: Bhava Sutta wrote:
Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a refined property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming.



So, in essence, the end of craving with regard to actions, perceptions, consciousness, etc, etc, etc, allows one to both be acting in the world but not as joined with those actions and resulting mental fabrications? Would I be getting closer there? I still find it a little difficult to grasp, but I assume experience would help fill the gap there...

:anjali:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

"Hope... is irrational."
- Huey Freeman
User avatar
Kasina
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:35 pm
Location: Barrie, Canada

Re: Kamma after the Buddha's awakening (or any other being)

Postby Kasina » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:31 pm

SarathW wrote:17. Kiriya or Kriyà, literally, means action.

Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action.
Kamma is causally effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective.
Good deeds of Buddhas and Arahants are called Kiriya
because Kamma is not accumulated by them as they have
gone beyond both good and evil.
In Abhidhamma Vipàka and Kiriya are collectively
called Abyàkata (Indeterminate) that which does not man
ifest itself in the way of an effect. The former is Abyàkata,
because it is an effect in itself, the latter, because it does
not produce an effect.

Page 37

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf


So, it would be causally innefective in the sense that it doesn't contribute to more clinging/craving leading to further rebirth? Good food for thought. Thank you for the link.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

"Hope... is irrational."
- Huey Freeman
User avatar
Kasina
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:35 pm
Location: Barrie, Canada


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