Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

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Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby chethinie » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:22 pm

Hi,

I'm trying to understand what is meant by Sakkaya Ditthi. Could anyone of you please explain it to me in simple terms? or perhaps give me reading references please?

Thank you very much.
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby greeneggsandsam » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:29 pm

Self identification view. The view that mistakenly identifies any of the khandha as "self"
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby santa100 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:55 pm

More info. on sakkaya-ditthi from MN 44
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby SarathW » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:15 am

Hi Chethinie
Please note two important differences :
a) Self view (first fetter) is eliminated by the Sotapanna.
"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification (view) described by the Blessed One."
b) Cesation of self identification (tenth fetter) is eliminated by Arahant.

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

This matter is discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17821
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby Sylvester » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:44 am

It would be helpful to take a look at the etymology of the word and see how it fit into a dominant pre-Buddhist world view - this will give a clue as to why the suttas identify sakkāya with the Suffering of the First Noble Truth.

Sakkāya = sa (reflexive pronoun = one's own) + kāya (body).

So, what's the big deal about one's own body? Why should a view about it be so pernicious, when SN 12.61 suggests that decay in the physical body can be so easily discerned? I would suggest that kāya has a very broad range of meanings, including the physical body, but more importantly, also the Vedic sense carried by the Upanisads. And it is this Vedic sense that comes to be lumped under sakkāyadiṭṭhi.

Olivelle says -

In these documents, the term most frequently used with reference to a living,
breathing body is ātman, a term liable to misunderstanding and mistranslating be-
cause it can also mean the spiritual self or the inmost core of a human being, besides
functioning as a mere reflexive pronoun.

p.45, The Early Upanisads, Annotated Text and Translation


Several examples from the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upanisad make it clear that ātman's 3rd sense as the "body" is used to describe the collection of functions known as the prāṇas of speech, sight, hearing, mind and breath. A quote from the BA -

Next, an examination of the observances. Prajapati created the vital functions
(prana). Once they were created, they began to compete with each other. Speech
threw out the challenge: "I'm going to speak!" Sight shot back: "I'm going to see!"
and hearing: "I'm going to hear!" The other vital functions bragged likewise, each
according to its function. Taking the form of weariness, death took hold of them; it
captured and shackled them. That is why speech becomes weary, as do sight and
hearing. The central breath alone, however, death could not capture. So they sought
to know him, thinking: "He is clearly the best among us; whether he is moving or at
rest, he never falters or fails. Come, let us all become forms of him!" So they all
became merely forms of him. Therefore, they are called "breaths" (prana) after him.
For this very reason, a family is called after a man in that family who has this
knowledge. So, anyone who competes with a man with this knowledge withers
away. Yes, he withers away and dies in the end.
That was with respect to the body (atman). 22What follows is with respect to
the divine sphere.

pp.57 - 59


(As a sidetrack, MN 44's speech formations, body formations and mental formations are also discussed in the BA - "These are what constitute this self (atman)—it
consists of speech, it consists of mind, and it consists of breath." at p.55)

Yet, this sense of ātman as body is, according to the BA, incomplete. One is enjoined to realise ātman as Self, here -

At that time this world was without real distinctions; it was distinguished sim-
ply in terms of name and visible appearance—"He is so and so by name and has this
sort of an appearance." So even today this world is distinguished simply interms of
name and visible appearance, as when we say, "He is so and so by name and has
this sort of an appearance."
Penetrating this body up to the very nailtips, he remains there like a razor
within a case or a termite within a termite-hill. People do not see him, for he is in-
complete as he comes to be called breath when he is breathing, speech when he is
speaking, sight when he is seeing, hearing when he is hearing, and mind when he is
thinking. These are only the names of his various activities. A man who considers
him to be any one of these does not understand him, for he is incomplete within any
one of these. One should consider them as simply his self (atman), for in it all these
become one. This same self (atman) is the trail to this entire world, for by following
it one comes to know this entire world, just as by following their tracks one finds
[the cattle]. Whoever knows this finds fame and glory.
8This innermost thing, this self (atman)—it is dearer than a son, it is dearer
than wealth, it is dearer than everything else. If a man claims that something other
than his self is dear to him, and someone were to tell him that he will lose what he
holds dear, that is liable to happen. So a man should regard only his self as dear to
him. When a man regards only his self as dear to him, what he holds dear will never
perish.

pp.46-49


The problem of sakkāya therefore seems to be the tendency to think of this "collective" of functions as something to be realised as Self, be it one that lives on from life-to-life, or which terminates at death.

PS - Makes you wonder how the other instances of kāya in the suttas ought to be interpreted, eg he dwells touching the formless etc etc liberations with his body (kāyena)... See Tse Fu Kuan's note about the the Chinese parallel to MN 119, where the kāya that is perused looks more like the Vedic "body" that includes mental states (Mindfulness in Early Buddhism, pp 82-83).
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby SarathW » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:03 am

This may help too.
Four kind of clinging to self.
http://www.aimwell.org/anattalakkhana.h ... gingtoSelf
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:09 am

Great post. Thanks Sylvester.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby daverupa » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:04 am

Sylvester wrote:The problem of sakkāya therefore seems to be the tendency to think of this "collective" of functions as something to be realised as Self, be it one that lives on from life-to-life, or which terminates at death.

PS - Makes you wonder how the other instances of kāya in the suttas ought to be interpreted, eg he dwells touching the formless etc etc liberations with his body (kāyena)... See Tse Fu Kuan's note about the the Chinese parallel to MN 119, where the kāya that is perused looks more like the Vedic "body" that includes mental states (Mindfulness in Early Buddhism, pp 82-83).


SN 12.68 wrote:“Friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbana is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. Suppose, friend, there was a well along a desert road, but it had neither a rope nor a bucket. Then a man would come along, oppressed and afflicted by the heat, tired, parched, and thirsty. He would look down into the well and the knowledge would occur to him, ‘There is water,’ but he would not be able to make bodily contact with it. So too, friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbana is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.”


:thinking:

---

There's some poetic soil with 'knowledge there is water'

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby Sylvester » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:45 am

"Direct" or "personal" seems to be the connotation for that denotation. Eg he realises with his body the highest truth in AN 4.113. See Warder's comment on this instrumental.
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby pulga » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:58 pm

Thanks, Sylvester. The passage you quote from the BA:

People do not see him, for he is in-
complete as he comes to be called breath when he is breathing, speech when he is
speaking, sight when he is seeing, hearing when he is hearing, and mind when he is
thinking. These are only the names of his various activities. A man who considers
him to be any one of these does not understand him, for he is incomplete within any
one of these. One should consider them as simply his self (atman), for in it all these
become one. This same self (atman) is the trail to this entire world, for by following
it one comes to know this entire world, just as by following their tracks one finds
[the cattle]. (Olivelle's translation)


brings to mind a passage from the Mahāvedallasutta:

“ Friend, [there are] these five faculties each with a separate field, a separate resort, no one of them exploiting for its being another's field and resort, that is to say, the eye faculty, the ear faculty, nose faculty, tongue faculty, and body faculty. Now these five faculties each with a separate field , a separate resort, no one of them exploiting for its being another's field and resort, have mind as their homing place, mind exploits for its being their fields and resorts”. M43 (Ven. Ñanamoli's translation)

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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby daverupa » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:17 pm

How can we simply distinguish sakkaya-ditthi and asmi-mana here?

The "I-am" with respect to the aggregates is a fetter that remains even for non-returners, so perhaps sakkaya-ditthi means views of Self which are crafted from a knit of the six senses, while asmi-mana is the lack of this homunculus, though a subjective sense of "the-same-me/mine" for any given experience at a given sense gate nevertheless remains.

:thinking:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:37 pm

Greetings,

daverupa wrote:How can we simply distinguish sakkaya-ditthi and asmi-mana here?

How about this...

The first is a (wrong) view of self, whereas the second is a (wrong) experience of self.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby santa100 » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:45 am

daverupa wrote:How can we simply distinguish sakkaya-ditthi and asmi-mana here?

Their distinction from another thread here
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby chethinie » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:13 am

Hi everone,

Thank you very much for all your very helpful feedback. You've all have been so helpfull!

Kind wishes,
Chethinie
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby Ananda26 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:36 pm

chethinie wrote:Hi,

I'm trying to understand what is meant by Sakkaya Ditthi. Could anyone of you please explain it to me in simple terms? or perhaps give me reading references please?

Thank you very much.


sakkaya ditthi. personality view.

One of the 3 fetters abandoned by a Stream Winner. The fetter of personality View. The fetter of dought, and the fetter of adherence to rites and rituals.

Here with the abandoning of 3 fetters, one has become a Stream Winner, no more subject to rebirth in hell, no more subject to rebirth as an animal, no more subject to rebirth as a peta ghost, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as destination.

More References: Middle Length Discourses #2 and #44.
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby indian_buddhist » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:01 pm

As per my understanding:-

Illusion:
1. There is something apart from the 5 aggregates which a human is made up of (call it Soul or void or whatever).

Reality:
There is nothing apart from the 5 aggregates.

Illusion:
2. Belief that any of these 5 aggregates are permanent

Reality:
All the 5 aggregates are impermanent, constantly changing. Identification with any of the constantly changing 5 aggregates is wrong view.

Correct me if i am wrong please.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.
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Re: Sakkya Ditthi / Self belief

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri May 16, 2014 4:55 pm

daverupa wrote:How can we simply distinguish sakkaya-ditthi and asmi-mana here?

The "I-am" with respect to the aggregates is a fetter that remains even for non-returners, so perhaps sakkaya-ditthi means views of Self which are crafted from a knit of the six senses, while asmi-mana is the lack of this homunculus, though a subjective sense of "the-same-me/mine" for any given experience at a given sense gate nevertheless remains.


There is a subtle distinction from abandoning a personal ‘view’ of ‘Self’ (attā) intrinsic to the khandhā, and the complete “removal of the notion ‘I am’” ( asmimānasamugghāta). Khemaka discussed this with his peers (SN.22.89), that even though he did “…not consider anything as self or as belonging to self” with reference to the khandhā (āvuso pañcasupādānakkhandhesu na kiñci attānaṃ vā attanīyaṃ vā samanupassāmīti.), he still was beset with “Of these five aggregates subject to taking up, this ‘I am’ (even still) comes up, although I do not consider ‘I am this’” (‘…pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu `asmī'ti adhigataṃ, `ayamahamasmī'ti na ca samanupassāmī’ti.”).

What I find interesting in Khemaka’s case is that through expounding on the exact nuance of his own dilemma, and its remedy of detailed contemplation of ‘rise and fall’ (udayabbayānupassī), that Khemaka and all sixty elder bhikkhus were released of the unwholesome-outflows (āsava).

The key to this last challenge of the ‘notion ‘I am’’ (asmimāna) with the khandhā would seem to be ‘contemplation of rise and fall’ (udayabbayānupassī). This fits with the 4th tetrad of Ānāpānasati, leading with ‘contemplation of impermanence’ (aniccānupassī), juxtaposed to the 4th Satipaṭṭhāna.

This, and with reference to your mention of ‘…views of Self which are crafted from a knit of the six senses.’, we have the following:

    “Tasmātiha tvaṃ, ānanda, idampi tathāgatassa acchariyaṃ abbhutadhammaṃ dhārehi. idhānanda, tathāgatassa viditā vedanā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti; viditā saññā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti; viditā vitakkā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.”

    “ Therefore, Ānanda, you should also bear (in mind) this wonderful and marvelous characteristic of the Tathāgata; He knows the arising of sensations of feeling, knows their presence, and knows when they have vanished; He knows the arising of sense perceptions, knows their presence, and knows when they have vanished; He knows the arising of thoughts, knows their presence, and knows when they have vanished.”

    – MN. 123 (Acchariyābbhuta Sutta)
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

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