Why would have the buddha said so?

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happylotus1
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Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby happylotus1 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:44 pm

"In that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'"

"But, lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? For I have intentionally killed many living beings."

"Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'"


While I was reading the Angulimala sutta, the above quote strike me to wonder about why would have the buddha asked Venerable Angulimala to say to woman 'Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" As the Buddha would take every action with mindfulness and reasoning, what might be the reason the Buddha quoted the above sentence first and modified initial quote with 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" after Venerable Angulimala said "But, lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? For I have intentionally killed many living beings."

Link for Angulimala sutta is here...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?

fivebells
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Re: Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby fivebells » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:59 pm

I discussed this exchange a little in this post.

santa100
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Re: Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby santa100 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:48 pm

happylotus1 wrote:While I was reading the Angulimala sutta, the above quote strike me to wonder about why would have the buddha asked Venerable Angulimala to say to woman 'Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" As the Buddha would take every action with mindfulness and reasoning, what might be the reason the Buddha quoted the above sentence first and modified initial quote with 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" after Venerable Angulimala said "But, lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? For I have intentionally killed many living beings."

The Buddha probably already meant the "noble birth" all along but it's just that Angulimala at that time has not attained the fruit of arahantship and thus didn't quite get the intended meaning until the Buddha explicitly said so. This validates the notion about the Buddha's "omniscience" which the Buddha clarified that, while He's omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him, He cannot, however, know evertyhing simultaneously and must advert to whatever he wishes to know.

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happylotus1
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Re: Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby happylotus1 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:36 pm

The Buddha probably already meant the "noble birth" all along but it's just that Angulimala at that time has not attained the fruit of arahantship and thus didn't quite get the intended meaning until the Buddha explicitly said so

That makes sense
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?

fivebells
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Re: Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby fivebells » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:29 am

By the way, did the Buddha use the same pali word for "birth" in both cases?

santa100
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Re: Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby santa100 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:26 am

Original sentence from MN 86:
yatohaṃ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā

Ven. Bodhi renders:
"Sister, since I was born, I do not recall that I have ever intentionally deprived a living being of life. By this truth, may you be well and may your infant be well!"

..and the modified sentence with the extra "ariyaya jatiya" added to the jato(birth):
yatohaṃ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā

and rendered:
Sister, since I was born with the noble birth, I do not recall that I have ever intentionally deprived a living being of life. By this truth, may you be well and may your infant be well!

fivebells
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Re: Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby fivebells » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:48 am

Thanks. I think you used the same passage for both cases, but I got the idea from your detailed explanation.

Ananda26
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Re: Why would have the buddha said so?

Postby Ananda26 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:44 pm

happylotus1 wrote:
"In that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'"

"But, lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? For I have intentionally killed many living beings."

"Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'"


While I was reading the Angulimala sutta, the above quote strike me to wonder about why would have the buddha asked Venerable Angulimala to say to woman 'Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" As the Buddha would take every action with mindfulness and reasoning, what might be the reason the Buddha quoted the above sentence first and modified initial quote with 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'" after Venerable Angulimala said "But, lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? For I have intentionally killed many living beings."

Link for Angulimala sutta is here...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Buddha was first using the term born to refer to Angulimala Noble Birth of becoming a monk. It is a case of defeat if a monk kills a human being. There is also reference to Angulimala becoming an Arahant, becuase it is impossible that an Arahant would intentionally deprive a being of life.

But Angulimala did not fathom Buddha's poetic quotation, so Buddha clarified what he was refering to when questioned further by the Venerable Angulimala.


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