nibbana and dependent origination

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nibbana and dependent origination

Postby Coyote » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:39 pm

If nibbana is an object taken by the citta and perceived by sanna at the moment of fruition, then why do both cease according to the DO forumula? Surely at the moment of fruition there would still be fabrication present, in the form of consciousness/ and or perception.

DO seems to be describing the mind of the arahant as ignorance ceases. There is no ignorance, therefore no sankhara and no suffering. Is this wrong understanding?


Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance
comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the
cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the
cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the
cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes
the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of
feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the
cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the
cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the
cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth,
then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease.
Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. — Ud 1:3


Compare:
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering. Ud 8:1

If there are no elements, no world at the attainment of nibbana, how can there be consciousness perceiving it? The "fire" would not have totally gone out.

I am sure I am missing something obvious, so bear with me.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:12 pm

Hi Coyote,

I think that DO might only describe the arising of birth, suffering and death. At least that is the way I read it.

:anjali:
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby santa100 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:29 am

Notice Ud 8.1 has the title 'PariNibbana' while Ud 1.3 has the title 'Awakening'. Ud 1.3 told the story of the Buddha right after His enlightenment using His reviewing knowledge to review DO in forward and reverse order. And DO in reverse order basically means that the end of Ignorance now won't give rise to Fabrication, thus no "future" rebirth consciousness, thus no "future" new physical body/mental components, etc..So the Nibbana of Ud 1.3 is what's called Nibbana with residue remaining (He's still alive and the Five Aggregates are still there) while Ud 8.1 is what's called Nibbana with no residue remaining (cessation of all conditioned existence with His final passing away).
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby Coyote » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:11 pm

Beeblebrox and Santa100.

Thank you very much for your input. What you say makes a lot of sense.

Am I to understand that the nibbana experienced at arahantship is not an experience (or rather lack of) as presented in Udana 8.1? That these things only come to their end at parinibbana?

Many thanks
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby santa100 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:55 pm

Maybe from a time dimension, the Nibbana without residue only comes with His final passing away which results in the cessation of conditioned existene. But from a spatial dimension or whatever dimension yet to be experienced by us worldlings, the arahant might already experienced that type of Nibbana. That's why the Buddha was able to describe about "that dimension[PariNibbana]" while He was still living. Apparently it's hard to know for sure about something that we worldlings have not experienced for ourselves, just like anything a deepwater fish trying to say about air would be provisional until it actually gets out of the water itself..
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby Lal54 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:42 pm

I have a new website on explaining Dhamma concepts: puredhamma.net.
There are several posts on Nibbana and dependent origination. For example,
http://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concep ... n/nibbana/
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby Coyote » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:16 pm

Santa100, all,

I think I understand now. I think I have mistaken parinibbana for nibbana.

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left..." Iti 38

At the attainment of nibbana (i.e arahantship), the arahant is cleansed of the fires of greed, aversion and delusion. The residue remaining is the body and mind left over from past actions, ultimately born from ignorance. At death, this residue (maybe akin to embers in the fire analogy), cease completely as in the dependent origination formula.

This also makes sense in light of there being aggregates and clinging-aggregates.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby Ananda26 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:16 pm

Coyote wrote:If nibbana is an object taken by the citta and perceived by sanna at the moment of fruition, then why do both cease according to the DO forumula? Surely at the moment of fruition there would still be fabrication present, in the form of consciousness/ and or perception.

DO seems to be describing the mind of the arahant as ignorance ceases. There is no ignorance, therefore no sankhara and no suffering. Is this wrong understanding?


Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance
comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the
cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the
cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the
cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes
the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of
feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the
cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the
cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the
cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth,
then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease.
Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. — Ud 1:3


Compare:
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering. Ud 8:1

If there are no elements, no world at the attainment of nibbana, how can there be consciousness perceiving it? The "fire" would not have totally gone out.

I am sure I am missing something obvious, so bear with me.


Knowledge arises in the Arahant when he attains Nibbana. That knowledge is free from ignorance. So we look at dependent cessation. With the cessation of ignorance, formations cease...consciousness...mentality and form...the sixfold base...contact...feeling...craving...clinging...with the cessation of becoming birth ceases, with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease.

There are 2 Nibbana elements: Nibbana accompanied by clinging and final Nibbana free from clinging.
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:15 am

Ananda26 wrote:There are 2 Nibbana elements: Nibbana accompanied by clinging and final Nibbana free from clinging.


Could you provide a source for this? I thought an Arahant was free from clinging.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: nibbana and dependent origination

Postby Ananda26 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:53 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Ananda26 wrote:There are 2 Nibbana elements: Nibbana accompanied by clinging and final Nibbana free from clinging.


Could you provide a source for this? I thought an Arahant was free from clinging.


§ 44. The Nibbana-element

This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."


These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.


This quote is from the Itivuttaka.

The Arahant who has attained Nibbana, while the body persists he still has form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, but he is free from obsession about these. He is free from the fetters.

Then when he attains Final Nibbana he discards the body and does not take up another body. With the cessation of becoming cessation of birth.
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