Coyote wrote:If nibbana is an object taken by the citta and perceived by sanna at the moment of fruition, then why do both cease according to the DO forumula? Surely at the moment of fruition there would still be fabrication present, in the form of consciousness/ and or perception.
DO seems to be describing the mind of the arahant as ignorance ceases. There is no ignorance, therefore no sankhara and no suffering. Is this wrong understanding?
Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance
comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the
cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the
cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-and-form comes the
cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes
the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of
feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the
cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the
cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the
cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth,
then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease.
Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. — Ud 1:3
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering. Ud 8:1
If there are no elements, no world at the attainment of nibbana, how can there be consciousness perceiving it? The "fire" would not have totally gone out.
I am sure I am missing something obvious, so bear with me.
Ananda26 wrote:There are 2 Nibbana elements: Nibbana accompanied by clinging and final Nibbana free from clinging.
Spiny Norman wrote:Ananda26 wrote:There are 2 Nibbana elements: Nibbana accompanied by clinging and final Nibbana free from clinging.
Could you provide a source for this? I thought an Arahant was free from clinging.
§ 44. The Nibbana-element
This was said by the Lord...
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."
These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.
Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
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