Anicca and Stable Atoms.

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Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby indian_buddhist » Sat May 03, 2014 8:18 pm

The Buddha said all Conditioned things are subject to change. However there are stable Atoms which never decay and remain forever. If this is true then how is Anicca valid then?.
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby waterchan » Sat May 03, 2014 8:23 pm

What happens when this universe ends?
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby indian_buddhist » Sat May 03, 2014 8:34 pm

waterchan wrote:What happens when this universe ends?



There is no conclusive evidence as yet that the universe ends
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby Mkoll » Sat May 03, 2014 8:36 pm

I bet if you looked long enough at those atoms you'd find they aren't so stable after all.
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby waterchan » Sat May 03, 2014 8:47 pm

indian_buddhist wrote:
waterchan wrote:What happens when this universe ends?



There is no conclusive evidence as yet that the universe ends


But the theory is supported by both modern science and presented as a fact in the Buddha's teachings.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 03, 2014 9:10 pm

indian_buddhist wrote:The Buddha said all Conditioned things are subject to change. However there are stable Atoms which never decay and remain forever. If this is true then how is Anicca valid then?.
The question is: what "conditioned things" is the Buddha talking about? You should be able to enumerate all of them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby waterchan » Sat May 03, 2014 9:31 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:The Buddha said all Conditioned things are subject to change. However there are stable Atoms which never decay and remain forever. If this is true then how is Anicca valid then?.
The question is: what "conditioned things" is the Buddha talking about? You should be able to enumerate all of them.

I will horribly murder anyone who gives away the answer this question.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby Goofaholix » Sat May 03, 2014 10:34 pm

indian_buddhist wrote:The Buddha said all Conditioned things are subject to change. However there are stable Atoms which never decay and remain forever. If this is true then how is Anicca valid then?.


The atoms may be stable but the molecules they form together with other atoms are not.

The point is can the mind put it's trust in a stable atom to provide lasting satisfaction, not likely.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby James the Giant » Sun May 04, 2014 1:31 am

There are no stable atoms. Where did you hear there are stable, eternal atoms? Even the building blocks of atoms, like protons and electrons, decay and change.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby chownah » Sun May 04, 2014 2:37 am

waterchan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:The Buddha said all Conditioned things are subject to change. However there are stable Atoms which never decay and remain forever. If this is true then how is Anicca valid then?.
The question is: what "conditioned things" is the Buddha talking about? You should be able to enumerate all of them.

I will horribly murder anyone who gives away the answer this question.

Would you please clarify this statement?
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 04, 2014 3:17 am

chownah wrote:Would you please clarify this statement?
chownah
What is to clarify? He'll likely slowly dismember you if you were to give away the answer to the question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby indian_buddhist » Sun May 04, 2014 5:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Would you please clarify this statement?
chownah
What is to clarify? He'll likely slowly dismember you if you were to give away the answer to the question.


How is this attitude different from Christians who argued with scientists and killed/persecuted them when they said that Earth was flat or with those Muslims who argue with scientists that Human Evolution is false ?.

Religion has to stand up with science otherwise Religion has no basis. Every sensible human will agree with me.
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby indian_buddhist » Sun May 04, 2014 5:24 am

Coming back to the question, yes there are stable Atoms which (considering the progress of science till now) have shown to live on to forever. However some scientists have given a Theoretical argument of Proton Decay (which has not been shown to have conclusive evidence till now). If Proton Decay is proven by conclusive evidence then Buddha's assertion that all conditioned things will eventually decay would hold true.
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 04, 2014 5:37 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Would you please clarify this statement?
chownah
What is to clarify? He'll likely slowly dismember you if you were to give away the answer to the question.


How is this attitude different from Christians who argued with scientists and killed/persecuted them when they said that Earth was flat or with those Muslims who argue with scientists that Human Evolution is false ?.

Religion has to stand up with science otherwise Religion has no basis. Every sensible human will agree with me.



It's a joke, son, it's a joke. http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/itsajoke.wav

I noticed that you did not address my question: The question is: what "conditioned things" is the Buddha talking about? You should be able to enumerate all of them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby indian_buddhist » Sun May 04, 2014 6:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What is to clarify? He'll likely slowly dismember you if you were to give away the answer to the question.


How is this attitude different from Christians who argued with scientists and killed/persecuted them when they said that Earth was flat or with those Muslims who argue with scientists that Human Evolution is false ?.

Religion has to stand up with science otherwise Religion has no basis. Every sensible human will agree with me.



It's a joke, son, it's a joke. http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/itsajoke.wav

I noticed that you did not address my question: The question is: what "conditioned things" is the Buddha talking about? You should be able to enumerate all of them.


what are you talking about?. Human beings have atoms which never die.....So where does the theory of Anicca proved that matter comes to an end?. specifically answer my question.
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 04, 2014 6:35 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
what are you talking about?. Human beings have atoms which never die.....So where does the theory of Anicca proved that matter comes to an end?. specifically answer my question.
I am talking about the Buddha's teachings. The question remains: What is the Buddha talking about when he is referring to conditioned things? As I said: You should be able to easily enumerate all of these things.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby indian_buddhist » Sun May 04, 2014 6:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:
what are you talking about?. Human beings have atoms which never die.....So where does the theory of Anicca proved that matter comes to an end?. specifically answer my question.
I am talking about the Buddha's teachings. The question remains: What is the Buddha talking about when he is referring to conditioned things? As I said: You should be able to easily enumerate all of these things.


Matter(human body), feelings, consciousness, mental formations and perception.

u dint answer my question.
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 04, 2014 6:58 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:
what are you talking about?. Human beings have atoms which never die.....So where does the theory of Anicca proved that matter comes to an end?. specifically answer my question.
I am talking about the Buddha's teachings. The question remains: What is the Buddha talking about when he is referring to conditioned things? As I said: You should be able to easily enumerate all of these things.


Matter(human body), feelings, consciousness, mental formations and perception.

u dint answer my question.
The Buddha is not talking about atoms as understood by science. The Buddha is clearly talking about what we experience:
    Recall that from the perspective of the Buddha’s teachings in the Pali, the ‘All’ {SN IV 15} is composed entirely of phassa, contact between sense base and sense object. We can only directly know phenomena within this ‘world of experience’, so from the Theravadin perspective, we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness, of seeing (the image of a brain), and so on. The discourses of the Pali describe an individual world of experience as composed of various mental and physical factors, nama and rupa. These two are not the separate, independent worlds that Rene Descartes envisioned.

    "…the Buddha spoke of the human person as a psychophysical personality (namarupa). Yet the psychic and the physical were never discussed in isolation, nor were they viewed as self-subsistent entities. For him, there was neither a ‘material-stuff’ nor a ‘mental-stuff’, because both are results of reductive analyses that go beyond experience."53

    The physical and mental aspects of human experience are continually arising together, intimately dependent on one another.

    53 Kalupahana 1976: 73, refers to D.15{II,62}, where the Buddha speaks of both
    physicality and mentality mutually dependent forms of contact (phassa).
    Physicality is described as contact with resistance (pat.ighasamphassa),
    mentality as contact with concepts (adhivacanasamphassa).

    STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis, page 190-1.http://www.bcbsdharma.org/wp-content/up ... gRoots.pdf

Talking about atoms is beside the point:
    "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

    "When, Bahiya, for you there will be only the seen in the seen, only the heard in the heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering."
    Udana 10

All of the conditioned things of which the Buddha spoke (SN IV 15):

    "Monks, I will teach you the all. And what is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. If anyone, monks, should speak thus: ' Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' --that would be a mere empty boast."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 04, 2014 7:14 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Anicca and Stable Atoms.

Postby chownah » Sun May 04, 2014 7:45 am

From
SN 35.82 PTS: S iv 52 CDB ii 1162
Loka Sutta: The World
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997:

" Insofar as it disintegrates,[2] monk, it is called the 'world.'"

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