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Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:28 am
by someguysomeguy
The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...

If we go into the literature, Buddha says that Rebirth can be seen in the 4th Jhana . Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:53 am
by TheNoBSBuddhist
I recently saw this on another website, if it interests you.

Of course, you still should investigate such matters for yourself....

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/681034- ... n-of-body/

:namaste:

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:05 am
by Zom

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:16 am
by suwapan
someguysomeguy wrote:
Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.
Has anyone seen the wind?

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:40 am
by Bhikkhu Pesala
Rebirth can be seen daily, whenever a new being comes into existence. That is evidence enough for someone who has the eye of faith to make the connection to death, which can also be seen daily. The flow of dependent origination can also be seen daily by one's own experience of being born into fresh activity (such as responding to this forum post), again and again, due to craving and ignorance.

The mere fact that you're asking this question shows that you lack confidence in the Buddha's teaching. Develop your confidence by meditating more and speculating less.

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:09 pm
by KumarS
someguysomeguy wrote:The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...

If we go into the literature, Buddha says that Rebirth can be seen in the 4th Jhana . Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.
There are many accounts of past lives in Gina Cerminara` s book about Cayce.
I think the book is called "Many Mansions"

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:09 pm
by TheNoBSBuddhist
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Rebirth can be seen daily, whenever a new being comes into existence. That is evidence enough for someone who has the eye of faith to make the connection to death, which can also be seen daily. The flow of dependent origination can also be seen daily by one's own experience of being born into fresh activity (such as responding to this forum post), again and again, due to craving and ignorance.

The mere fact that you're asking this question shows that you lack confidence in the Buddha's teaching. Develop your confidence by meditating more and speculating less.
:clap: :goodpost: :clap:

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:30 pm
by ancientbuddhism
Anytime there is ignorant contact with what is sensed there is ‘rebirth’.

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa ‘asmi’ tipissa hoti; ‘ayamahamasmi’ tipissa hoti; ‘bhavissan’tipissa hoti; ‘na bhavissan’tipissa hoti…”

Born of ignorant contact, bhikkhus, the untaught-commoner is influenced by sensations. Thus it occurs to him ‘I am’; thus it occurs to him ‘I am this’; thus it occurs to him ‘I exist’; thus it occurs to him ‘I do not exist’…” – SN. 22.47 (Samanupassanā Sutta)

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:37 pm
by 2pennyworth
There seems to be a lot of confusion about between the difference of reincarnation and rebirth.

Excerpt from MN 38:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Sāvatthī, at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's park. Now on that occasion this pernicious viewpoint (diṭṭhigata) had arisen in the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son: "As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on [from birth to birth], not another." A large number of monks heard, "They say that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son: 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on [from birth to birth], not another.'" So they went to the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son and on arrival said to him, "Is it true, friend Sāti, that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another'?"


"Exactly so, friends. I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One such that it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."

Then those monks, desiring to pry the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son away from that pernicious viewpoint, quizzed him back & forth and rebuked him, saying, "Don't say that, friend Sāti. Don't slander the Blessed One, for it is not good to slander the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not say anything like that. In many ways, friend, the Blessed One has said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'" And yet even though he was quizzed back & forth and rebuked by those monks, the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son, through stubbornness and attachment to that very same pernicious viewpoint, continued to insist, "Exactly so, friends. I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One such that it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."
Full sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Matt :smile:

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:44 pm
by TheNoBSBuddhist
You are right; The only Buddhist tradition, AFAIK, that truly prescribes to Reincarnation in its literal sense, is Tibetan Buddhism; the most prominent and/or famous example of this process, being His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who is the 14th in his lineage....

Re-birth is 'reserved for Hoi Poloi; the rabble.

Us, in other words.... :tongue:

:namaste:

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:50 pm
by piotr
Hi,
  • Just as if on being asked about a mango he were to describe a breadfruit-tree to me, or on being asked about breadfruit-tree to me he were to describe a mango.

    — Sāmaññaphala-sutta (DN 2), trans. by Maurice Walshe
It's a shame but most of the answers are not to the point and one I find even offensive.

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:58 pm
by TheNoBSBuddhist
Well if it is I who has offended, albeit unwittingly and unintentionally, I apologise.

I would not offend sensibilities in such a way.
Forgive whatever ignorance you might perceive.

:namaste:

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:02 pm
by piotr
Hi,
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Well if it is I who has offended, albeit unwittingly and unintentionally, I apologise.
It's not you. I find it offensive when someone asks legitimate question and instead of proper answer he/she receives preaching about his lack of confidence.

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:07 pm
by Lazy_eye
someguysomeguy wrote:The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...
It would be nice if there were some conclusive evidence, but I'm not surprised that there isn't. Rebirth is inherently hard to test -- how could it be done, really? Maybe some large-scale study carried out over generations and across multiple geographical regions, but who has the resources to conduct such a study?

Keep in mind also that most people are not reborn into the human realm after death; in fact, it can take many eons before one takes human form again. From the Chiggala Sutta:
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state.
So a scientific test would have to be capable of finding that turtle.

If you're interested in resolving for yourself whether rebirth is plausible, it may be more fruitful to look at the nature of consciousness. If consciousness has a material cause, then rebirth is impossible; if it does not have a material cause, rebirth is not only possible but likely.

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:37 pm
by 2pennyworth
piotr wrote:... I find it offensive when someone asks legitimate question and instead of proper answer he/she receives preaching about his lack of confidence.
My attempt to defuse the tension here with a touch of humor :

I find your lack of faith disturbing Darth Vader:



We're all stuck in this round of samsara together. :group:

Matt :-)